Evan Hennessey of The Living Room and Stages At One Washington

#43. Chef Evan Hennessey is one of those chefs who is extremely passionate and devoted to not only moving the culinary industry forward, but also supporting up and coming chefs. Chef Hennessey is an award winning chef, 3 time Chopped Champion, and James Beard semifinalist who graduated from Le Cordon Bleu at the Atlantic Culinary Academy in 2001. He has since cooked alongside some of the best chef’s in the country including Chef Charlie Palmer and Thomas Keller, and is now the Chef Owner at The Living Room and Stages At One Washington in Dover, New Hampshire. In this episode, Chef Hennessey shares his passion for advancing the culinary industry and supporting emerging talents.

Josh and Chef Hennessey discuss his "Staging At Stages" program, where chefs have the opportunity to experience an apprenticeship unlike any other. Forget peeling potatoes or cleaning mushrooms for days—participants work side by side with Evan for five days, cooking everything together. The culmination? A meal of their inspiration, with 50 percent of the proceeds shared with the aspiring chef.

In this intimate conversation, our host and Chef discuss Evan's approach to hiring, training, and navigating kitchen mishaps as well as how he seamlessly integrates guests and the team into the dining experience at Stages and The Living Room.

Where to find Evan Hennessey: 

• Instagram
• LinkedIn

**CLICK HERE TO APPLY FOR STAGING AT STAGES**

Where to find host Josh Sharkey:

• Instagram
• LinkedIn

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In this episode, we cover:

(03:50) Why Evan chose to come back to New Hampshire/the lifestyle of people in New Hampshire
(09:11) The variety of mushrooms found in forests outside of houses in Upstate New York and New Hampshire
(11:26) Culinary maturity
(16:13) All about The Living Room and Stages
(19:13) The history of staging and how Evan is innovating it with Staging at Stages
(36:56) How Evan thinks about hiring a team
(45:09) How Evan balances providing like autonomy of thought in the execution of the food with his team
(50:27) Why people work at Living Room and Stages
(56:25) How to apply for the staging program
(58:54) Where Evan will be in 5-10 years

Transcript

[00:00:00] Josh Sharkey: 

You're listening to season two of The meez Podcast. I'm your host, Josh Sharkey, the founder and CEO of meez, a culinary operating system for food professionals. On the show, we're going to talk to high performers in the food business, everything from chefs to CEOs, technologists, writers, investors, and more about how they innovate and operate and how they consistently execute at a high level.

[00:00:24] 

And I would really love it if you could drop us a five star review anywhere that you listen to your podcast. That could be Apple, that could be Spotify, could be Google. I'm not picky. Anywhere works. But I really appreciate the support. And as always, I hope you enjoy the show.

[00:00:42]

My guest today is the chef and owner of, “Stages in the Living Room” in Dover, New Hampshire, Evan Hennessey. And this was such an awesome conversation. Evan is a James Beard semi finalist and three time chop champion. But what's really evident when you get to know him more is that he is incredibly passionate and devoted to moving the culinary industry forward and supporting up and coming chefs.

[00:01:03] 

So much so that he started a really killer program called, “Staging At Stages”. If you don't know what staging is, it's essentially like an apprenticeship where a chef can come and work for a day or two days or a week, uh, you know, depending on how long. Typically unpaid, sometimes paid, but. In this case, the program, the chef comes and works alongside Evan at the restaurant for five days, cooking everything together.

[00:01:23]

And this is not typical of a stage. Typically, you would, you know, be peeling potatoes or, you know, cleaning mushrooms or something for days on end. But here you're working directly alongside him. So you learn a lot. And then at the end, you create a meal of your inspiration and 50 percent of the proceeds are shared with the stagiaire.

[00:01:40] 

So, Evan and I spend a lot of time talking about the approaches to hiring and training talent and how to deal with mistakes made in the kitchen. The restaurant is really intimate and Evan clearly loves to bring the guest and the team into the experience and there's really interesting ways in which he's doing that at Stages.

[00:01:57] 

You can learn more about the stash program in the show notes. We'll give you a link to where you can even apply if you're interested. So as always, I love the conversation and I hope that you enjoy the show as much as I did.

[00:02:15] Josh Sharkey: 

 We're live, by the way. So welcome to the podcast. 

[00:02:19] Evan Hennessey: 

Nice. Hey, hi. 

[00:02:21] Josh Sharkey: 

I'm stoked to have you on, man, and, um, I'm just gonna kind of dig in if that's cool. I'm gonna move locations. Yeah, yeah, do your thing. 

[00:02:28] Evan Hennessey: 

You follow me through my home, give you a tour. There we go. There's my wife over there, working away. Hello. Give you a nice outdoor, actually, I'll show you.

[00:02:37] Evan Hennessey: 

This is what I'm talking about. You can kind of see. That's what we're dealing with outside right now. Oh, yeah.

[00:02:41] Josh Sharkey: 

Gee, that's, is that ice? 

[00:02:44] Evan Hennessey: 

No, that's snow. And it's like some of the stuff on the deck is like kind of iced over, but it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the dogs love it. I'll tell you that. 

[00:02:56] Josh Sharkey: 

Uh, yeah, my dog is obsessed with the snow. Oh, they love it.

[00:02:59] Evan Hennessey: 

Yeah. They're like, they roll in it. They lay in it. They eat it. I mean, I would be psyched if I were a dog. He's like, Oh, all of a sudden you can start. 

[00:03:05] Josh Sharkey: 

What kind of dog do you have? 

[00:03:08] Evan Hennessey: 

I've got three. Uh, the one that's right here hanging out with me.

This is Ellie. Yeah. So she's, uh, yeah, she's an Australian Kelpie, and then we have a blue healer, and then we have, uh, Issa, who is a shepherd husky. She's our little, she's our little one.

[00:03:24] Josh Sharkey: 

Wait, do you have, how many kids do you have? 

[00:03:30] Evan Hennessey: 

Uh, three. Jeez, Yeah, yeah. Well, one is, one is much, yeah, one is much older, and then two are the, uh, 12 and 15.

[00:03:35] Josh Sharkey: 

That's nuts, man. That's nuts. Good for you. We have a, we have an English bulldog, but he kind of just lays around all day. 

[00:03:44] Evan Hennessey: 

I think you were saying that before. 

[00:03:45] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. Yeah. So it's, uh, you know, it's like a little baby. Yeah, they 

[00:03:50] Evan Hennessey:

Yeah, they are. They totally are. 

[00:03:53] Josh Sharkey: 

Anyways, let's, let's dig in, man. Yeah. Stoked to have you on.

The first thing I was actually really curious about, I don't remember we actually talked about it, but you know, obviously you worked at a bunch of awesome spots in New York, Per Se, and Cafe Boulud, and Torrisi, and uh, I think you obviously also worked in Chicago, like Trio, is that right? Trio, correct. Yeah, and you know, what brought you back to New Hampshire?

[00:04:13] 

Because you are born and raised in New Hampshire, right? And then you left, and why'd you come back? 

[00:04:18] Evan Hennessey: 

Oh, it's such an easy question. It's, uh, and it's one that I love to say, it's just, um, I mean, obviously the fact that like I grew up and was raised here, like, I love this area, I love small towns, I love the access to, uh, the mountains and the ocean, big cities are great, but I'm definitely not a city boy at all.

[00:04:34] 

And I need my, I need this, you know, I just kind of showed you the, the outside is like, we have, you know, four acres off in the forest and like, this is what I need. This is, you know, good for me. And that's why, that's honestly why it was like, I like the way that the sort of small town, New England is, it's a, it's a super great feel for me.

[00:04:52] 

 And yeah, I mean, I really just, I need to be near the ocean and the mountains to be  able to get through pretty quickly.

[00:04:56] Josh Sharkey:

I lived in Nantucket for a while and I lived in Ireland, but I know nothing about New Hampshire. I imagine there's probably a large cohort of people in America that don't, what should we know about New Hampshire and maybe because there's so many things, just like, what should we know about New Hampshire as it relates to the culinary landscape and then just like nature, you know, because it sounds like it's pretty pristine.

[00:05:19] Evan Hennessey: 

We'll start off with nature because that's more prolific than the culinary scene is at the moment. And I mean, we've, we're known for the white mountains and Mount Washington is the highest peak in elevation, uh, the side of the Mississippi, you know, we've got. Tiny little coastline. It's like roughly if you stretch it out, it's like 13 and a half miles or something like that.

[00:05:35] 

It's tiny. Oh, wow. Um, but it's beautiful. Some sort of like combination of rocky and soft sand beaches, um, out there. But a lot of pine forest, a lot of birch coming up this way, a decent amount of maple. That's kind of what our area looks like. I mean, we're situated in a very dense pine forest here. Uh, culinarily, We're working on it, you know, where the landscape is really growing, you, you, it's very focused on the seacoast for many, many years that, uh, Portsmouth has been kind of known as like the epicenter of restaurants.

[00:06:06] 

Um, I use the word great restaurants here and there, but they have a lot of restaurants. So that's, that's very dense population of Portsmouth is maybe like 33, 34,000 people, very transient population because they have a high tourist. population that comes through in the summertime, whereas Dover, which is where stages in the Living Room are located, uh, has very little tourism whatsoever.

[00:06:26] 

So we kind of stay right around that, that 33,000 mark, uh, pretty much year round. So we don't see an influx of people in the summertime, which is actually kind of nice, nor do we see it, you know, sort of change and go during, during the winter time. And as far as like, again, like a concentration of restaurants that we are, yeah, highly pushed in this area.

[00:06:46] 

There's an average. Variety of restaurants, a lot of people, a lot of restaurants call and fall into the category of like new American, whatever that exactly that means. And then you kind of have a couple of stragglers to pop out and kind of like the Italian side or some version of of an Asian restaurant or something like that. Um, it's kind of what we do here. A lot of breweries.

[00:07:06] Josh Sharkey: 

What I mean, what are like people that have lived in New Hampshire for, you know, many generations, what are they cooking at home? Like what are like the staples? Um, 

[00:07:17] Evan Hennessey: 

I mean, not necessarily, I mean, a pretty fair amount of people up here, um, hunt, so, you know, that they'll probably have that, you know, like deer meat or whatnot, quite a bit. But other than that, I mean, it's, uh, there isn't anything that necessarily, like to me, at least that stands out. Yeah, you know, there's stuff that you'll see commercialized, you know, everybody knows about like clam chowder and lobster rolls and things like that, but you know, people really aren't making that kind of stuff at home.

[00:07:43] Josh Sharkey: 

Well, yeah, yeah, for sure. But, and in terms of the things that are available around there, I mean, I've seen, I sit in your menu things like, you know, Matsutake and I imagine there's, there's, there's obviously mushrooms, but like, are, are you getting Matsutakes up there? Are there other, like, what, what type of they are of, of products are like, you know, native to there?

[00:07:58] Evan Hennessey: 

So here's a good way to start describing that is that the, one of the biggest things that we actually lack is citrus past that we have, we have a lot of stuff up here, huge diversity of mushrooms. You mentioned Matsutake is, and we get everything from hen of the woods, chicken of the woods, lobsters, um, Morales, sometimes you'll find black trumpets are pretty prolific and Matsutake are awesome varieties of oyster mushrooms, all kinds of different stuff, cauliflower, mushrooms, um, Bear's head and lion's manes, like those are all the wilds and yeah, as we, we get in chanterelles, that's another one we get, uh, yellow, yellow foot in and, uh, and chanterelles.

[00:08:34]

So tons of those speaks to the fact that we've got tons of forest, um, you know, farmland, good variety of kind of, we'll call them common vegetables, everything from potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, you know, eggplant, basically all the nightshades. Can thrive really well up here. Very, you know, it's good herb country. A lot of people do well with fresh herbs, wildflowers, a lot of that. Yeah, I mean, 

[00:08:56] 

It's pretty much everything that's the same like it's better described to like to tell you first what we don't have because it's literally just citrus. 

[00:09:02] Josh Sharkey: 

I Imagine avocados. 

[00:09:04] Evan Hennessey: 

And avocados. Yeah, yeah. But we get great fruits. I mean, we're known for our apples, you know.

[00:09:11] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah, yeah, that's cool. Yeah, you know, I lived in New York City for 20, 20 years. My wife and I moved up to kind of live in the woods in northern Westchester. I had no idea. although, I mean, just in our backyard, we have ramps, morels, chicken in the woods, chanterelles. It's, it's crazy. It's amazing. And then you walk down the, you know, block and there's, you know, just so many types of mushrooms. Like, I can't believe that, you know, these are all around here. 

[00:09:31] Evan Hennessey: 

Yeah, it's so great. Ramps are awesome, man. We, we find those, they, you know, that tiny little window in the springtime that we're able to actually find. We have a space not too far from where I live. It's all like 10, 10 minutes from where I live.

[00:09:43] 

And it's a highly coveted space because it's, they're not normally seen right around where we are. It's more sort of towards like like the Western side of the Appalachians. I mean, you're talking, you know, like where you are and everything. It's like, they kind of more grow out in that direction than where we are.

[00:09:58] Josh Sharkey: 

It's crazy how many there are near me and no one even knows. Like I said, we were at like, uh, our, uh, one of my son's or daughter's friends, like from her class, like we're at her, their parents house down the block. And it's literally just. Probably like a half acre of ramps everywhere. And I was like, do you know what these are here?

[00:10:19] 

And they're like, what are those things? And I'm like, OK, I need to start a business because every house here, I could just, you know, get all these ramps, you know, 18 bucks a pound. And they're everywhere. You know, like literally they're everywhere around here. So anyways, you know, you have Stages In the Living Room up in New Hampshire.

[00:10:36] 

And I want to just stages and stages are. You know, I keep saying Staj in my head because we're going to talk about Staj. So anyways, we'll get to that as well. You know, it's been around for 12 years, right? 

[00:10:50] Evan Hennessey:

Just about. Yeah. We, we touched 12 this, this March, actually. It's coming soon. 

[00:10:53] Josh Sharkey: 

Wow. So I want to hear like you talk about what the restaurant is and why, but you know.

[00:10:58] 

One thing, you know, I've been thinking a lot about this lately, 

you know, when I think back from five years ago, ten years ago, like I always kind of want to be embarrassed about what I was putting out five years ago. Otherwise, you know, what am I? You know, how much am I growing? But like, I'm curious. You know, you've been doing this restaurant now, you've been doing it for 12 years.

[00:11:17] 

What's changed? What's evolved? Like, what are the most tangible, like, differences between day one and now 12 years later with the restaurant? 

[00:11:26] Evan Hennessey: 

That’s such a great question, and I honestly think about that all the time, whether somebody's asking me that. Directly or not. And for me, a huge thing that has changed is we'll call it culinary.

[00:11:39] 

Culinary maturity is a big thing. You know, I think that I've learned to really simplify and yet bring in a, uh, more precision into the flavor, I think is a good thing. I definitely think my my food has definitely, it's matured. A lot. I think when we started, it was very influenced by all my experiences that you know, my career up until that point.

[00:12:01]

And I think in a lot of times, like when you open your own restaurant, like you, you do see that to a fair amount. It's a. It's some version of a reproduction of, um, of stuff that you've done, you know, another restaurant, you know, like I've worked at, you know, restaurants X, Y, and Z. And so that I'm taking all those techniques and ideas and I'm putting my version of that on the plate.

[00:12:21] 

And if, you know, flash forward over a handful of years that you really learned to kind of grow out of that. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not trying to set it at all. It's just that you see, you've got to start somewhere, you know, when it's finally your choice in your decision that it takes time to move out of the influence of other people's choices and into your own and to the point where you can actually put forth something that's on the plane to say, like, that I completely created this.

[00:12:48]

All the way through, you know, I mean, obviously you learn techniques and things like that throughout your career, but to be able to put forth a flavor combination that you came up with is where we've gotten, you know, that's, you know, over the course of almost 12 years that that's where we've gotten to, we've definitely moved in a more, we'll say like Scandinavian Japanese flavor profile and not necessarily in terms of choice of I want to be that it was, um, it was simply.

[00:13:17] 

A very simple case of just looking at a map and seeing where geographically we were and what other worlds or what other areas in the world had similar sort of agriculture and aquaculture things going on. And those just happen to be those regions. And so for us to kind of assimilate with those cultures and food styles, it just made a lot of sense.

[00:13:36] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. Yeah. I imagine when you first opened, it's a lot of just taking all the things you've learned. Over the years and then just putting dishes out based on that. And then over time you start to, you know, embrace the land that you're living in, you know, living on and the, and the products more.

[00:13:50] Evan Hennessey: 

Another huge change. I remember, yeah, this is coming out of like the, um, the Per Se mentality of like, there's a thousand purveyors, you know, for different, different things. And when we first opened it, even the first handful of years, I was very much stuck in the mindset of like, I get my onions from this guy and my carrots from this guy and my celery from here.

[00:14:08] 

And this comes from that guy. And I very quickly realized it's like, that's the dumbest freaking thing I've ever done in my life. Like that's, I don't know, I don't know any of these people, you know, I know none of this stuff and I'm literally just doing this for the bragging sake of like, look, look at how many prayers I've got and look how, look how much I can do.

[00:14:24] 

Look how, look how cool I am, you know? And so I. Home that into a very small group of people, this is the best way to say that, you know, so we work, it was just one farm, we do vegetables from, you know, another farm, we do dairy eggs and some vegetables. There's a farm like 45 minutes from us that we are on a breeding program with, so they raise our land animals for us.

[00:14:45]

And so those are the things that have taken years and years to. Get to that, that situation, you know, to, to that level of relationship with with different farms. And, uh, even now starting this spring, I just had a great conversation with a tuna fisherman. And so coming this spring, he will take us out on his boat and we can show us, he's gonna show us how he catches tuna and we'll start fishing for different things with him and.

[00:15:08] 

My wife and I both have diving certifications. We can actually take a big long step off the back of his boat and, and pull seaweed and do, you know, look for other things that are just slightly below the ocean surface, you know, so there's that we were working with an oyster farm, which my wife also works on.

[00:15:24] 

And so that they're harvesting oysters for us. Like we're walking out into the water and picking our oysters, which is awesome. So again, these are the huge things that have evolved into the point where we are that connected with the food that we're bringing into the kitchen.

[00:15:36] Josh Sharkey: 

Also, this sounds like a lot of fun. It is a ton of fun. Absolutely. Yeah. A buddy of mine has an oyster farm in Eastern Shore, Virginia. There's Sawansakai oysters. And we go down and visit him. We've been friends for, I don't know, 20 some odd years. No, more than that. 35 years, I think. And it's so much fun like going into the, into the bay and like, you know, pulling these oysters out and just, you know, right, right in the boat, right there, pop it a couple in your mouth.

[00:16:02] 

Yeah. Well, can you just, you know, for anyone that doesn't know, just talk a little bit about Stages and Living Room and what's the concept? Just maybe explain at a 50,000 foot level, like what you're, what you're doing.

[00:16:13] Evan Hennessey: 

We will start with the Living Room. So the Living Room is our cocktail lounge that you walk through to get to Stages.

[00:16:20] 

The idea behind this is it's nice and cozy. It's kind of slightly dimly lit, very warm, almost like vintage lighting. It's all couches, coffee tables, bookshelves, record player, games from my generation, like board games and things like that. I brought in most of my cookbook collection so people can take books off the shelf and hang out.

[00:16:39] 

We have an excellent cocktail and mocktail program. Our full wine, uh, full beverage program is offered there. And then we do a small plates menu offered a la carte out there. People do make reservations. We don't require, but our biggest thing is like, we treat this restaurant as our home. And when you come into somebody's home, what's the first room that you get to the Living Room?

[00:16:59] 

So we want you to sit down, hang out, relax, and feel very comfortable. Um, and enjoy first off the company that you're with. And then we will highlight that with a selection of food and beverage. Walking through the Living Room, you get to Stages, which is the six seat kitchen table or chef's counter that's actually in the kitchen back there.

[00:17:18] 

So you have, you can see everything that's going on. I mean, we literally are plating, you know, three feet from you. So you get to see all parts of everything going on the creation of cooking, the plating, all the fire calls for a food going out to go out of the Living Room. So you kind of, you get a very behind the scenes look of not just how your food is put together, but how. Like a kitchen in a restaurant runs, which is pretty cool.

[00:17:40] Josh Sharkey: 

I always tell my, my wife, like the best experience I could think of would be like, either I end a meal before I start a meal is I can sit on a couch and have a cocktail, you know, like sitting in the chair, you know, like a, in a hard chair. You know, it's, I mean, it's fine when you go to a cocktail bar, but like having like a couch table and just leaning back, like there's nothing, nothing better than that. So what a great way to, you know, to, to start the meal.

[00:18:04] Evan Hennessey: 

When our guests have reservations for stages that we actually, when they arrive, we see them in the Living Room, we kind of. We say crush them with snacks, but like we do this almost overwhelming spread of like little hand bites and small snacks and tiny little plates of things.

[00:18:20] 

And we just cover their table with cool flavors and it's a great opening flavor wise for them. So I can kind of see what they're getting into, but then, yeah, it's just the people let them get situated and make them feel comfortable and then just kind of relax and hang out in the Living Room before we bring them into the kitchen.  And then they continue the, uh, the tasting menu in there.

[00:18:37] Josh Sharkey: 

Awesome. It's awesome. I want to spend a lot of time talking about like your process of working with the team, but maybe to tee it up, we can talk a little bit about your new program, staging. And I think You know, the idea of staging, I think it's sort of, you know, changed a lot over the last decade.

[00:18:55] 

I mean, it's been around since long ago, probably the 1800s, right, like practicing in restaurants because there was no other way to do it. But yeah, I would love for you to, you know, because you're so deep in and talk a little bit about just staging in general. So everybody, you know, is aware, I think most people probably know, and then just talk about your program a bit.

[00:19:13] Evan Hennessey: 

So I guess going into the history of his, you know, whether it's a considered a stage or an apprenticeship or anything, is that you as a cook or an aspiring cook are basically donating your time to learn at a restaurant for an unspecified amount of time. Some restaurants have obviously it's set up for a duration, one week, one month, three months, six months, whatever it may be.

[00:19:34] 

But the idea is that you're going in there unpaid and are going to do, and I think a lot of people expect this, almost the most tedious marginally meaningless, you know, tasks and then asked to stand to the side during a service and to watch, whereas their core team has everything so dialed in that bringing in, you know, kind of an unknown set of hands into the mix can, uh, can rock the boat a little bit.

[00:19:58] 

So usually you're just, you just get to watch and a lot of people romanticize that and saying like, oh, it's cool. So cool. It's like, I really get to watch. I get to see how this kitchen is and I get to watch how this Michelin star kitchen is and I get to, you know, do that. But yeah, you're just. Watching, which awesome, you know, really cool.

[00:20:16] 

But what what I'm offering is slightly different. So I am asking for five days of the chef's time, and they are 100 percent integrated into our team. They will be given prep lists. They'll be working with myself, my sous chef, going through all the prep, getting ready for service. They will be in every single piece of service, serving our guests, talking with our guests.

[00:20:38] 

And then with an underlying idea is that they themselves are going to create, uh, with my guidance, three dishes of their own, which would be of the level that we were present at stages anyways, and that they will sit down and present them to a sort of a closed group of 12 guests sat in the Living Room, and they'll have the opportunity per dish to really Talk through their process of how they got to that point a little bit about themselves, but more so how they got to that combination of flavors, why they created this dish, what their idea, when they would serve this throughout a menu and how the whole thing works.

[00:21:13] 

And then they get immediate feedback and reaction from our guests. And it's a very open, honest conversation, which is awesome because not hardly ever in a restaurant setting, do you get open and honest feedback from a guest right then, you know, so often it's like they wait until they get home and have had another glass of wine and they get on Yelp and then they tell you what they really thought about your, your restaurant, you know, so it's, this is a great opportunity for these people to, these chefs will not to sit down with our guests and really chat through a process and my hope is that that both guests and chef will learn more about themselves as a as a cook or a diner, but then also how to improve their process and their cooking and their and their technique and therefore it's very much.

[00:21:56] 

It's also like a pay it forward thing so that they take everything that they've learned while with us at Stages and then they can bring that back to their own establishments and hopefully that starts affecting them you know, what bigger picture it starts affecting the, the industry as a whole, you know, smarter decisions are, are made food, uh, in the industry, hopefully as a, as a whole gets, you know, the levels up a little more, you know, it's just, I'm really hoping to help build and influence the industry from with, yeah, I guess from within, you know, like I really want to work with the younger generation of people and give them guidance so that when they It's their turn to make choices as a chef. They have more of a foundation for it. 

[00:22:35] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah, I love that. I'm really curious, like, who, who is this person who, like, who's a typical person that would do this stage? Because it sounds like it probably isn't someone who's like incredibly green, right? Because if you're, you know, creating a dish and talking about why you might need some, you know, some semblance of experience, but like, what's the vetting process and who's like the ideal persona of who's doing the stage?

[00:22:55] Evan Hennessey: 

That’s such a great question. And it really is like, I mean, I really wish that I could take everybody and anybody, because Everybody who has applied like deserves this opportunity for sure. But as you said, somebody who's like super green, it would definitely help that they've had more dish creation experience or just more overall cooking experience and expands their level of technique and flavor building.

[00:23:17] 

So we'll say the best candidate was kind of like the middle of the road and that's got a huge window within it. You know, somebody who has some experience but hasn't been like, you know, the head chef or executive chef for, you know, 10, 12 years. Yeah. 

[00:23:31] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. That's what I figured. It's interesting too, because like there's, and I think you and I might've talked about this when we first started chatting was like, there's knowledge is now much more of a commodity than it ever was because of, you know, the internet and things like that.

[00:23:44] 

But just knowing going on YouTube or Tik Tok or whatever, you find these things and seeing how to do something is not enough. Right. And you have to have this experience. And part of that experience is. What you're talking about with this kind of stuff, which is incredible. And then part of it is also like, I mean, there's a value to doing something repetitively.

[00:24:04] 

I remember staging at Daniel, like, you know, my day off. And I think I spent three hours just cleaning mousseron mushrooms. Yeah. I remember asking the chef, like, okay, how, what, how do I, like, what's the fastest way to do this? And he said, start. Cool. I was like, got it. And you know, there's something to that, you know, because in cooking, in any craft really, right, there's the technical piece of it, but then there's also the psychological and the emotional piece of it.

[00:24:29]

You have to have, like, you know, durability, and you have to have resilience, and you have to have, like, the callous of knowing, like, this is not just having really good ideas. And this is not just, you know, being able to make something look pretty on a plate, but you have to be able to do this consistently over a long period of time.

[00:24:44] 

And it's not just mental, it's physical, both those things. And that's something to learn. And I think that's probably takes longer to learn. Is there any part of, it sounds like with the type of stars that you're doing, the purpose and approach is probably more for like, hey, you've gotten that part already and now we want you to start to, you know, see what your, you know, what your food and your, you know, and your ideas look like.

to the public. Is that sounds like that's more of kind of the approach that you're taking, right? Yeah. 

[00:25:10] 

And you actually just said something just that I really wanted to hone in on is that, you know, there's so many ideas out there and so many different things. And, um, one of the biggest things that I really want to help cooks and chefs do is to take that massive information, those little bits and pieces of things that they know how to do and really hone them in.

[00:25:28] 

And so that they're making smart choices for the plate. And then, you know, to like, how do you take an idea and understand if it's feasible? Flavor wise, logistically, financially, does it work within your menu structure where your guests like it? Are you making something just because you think it's cool or because it's a trend or whatever it is?

[00:25:48] 

Or are you putting forth like a stupidly solid plate of food that you know your guests are really going to, um, identify with? And there's, I've seen this in so many, in so many cooks, especially, you know, the younger ones, like they're, like you said, it's like, Whatever is on the internet or social media, there's just so many things out there and so many ideas that they're like, I'm going to do it all.

[00:26:08] 

I'm going to do it all right now. And so the menus and the food that they put together are the contend to be these highly disjointed ideas. You know, it's like you took all the puzzle pieces and put them together in the wrong order, but realizing instead of 100 piece puzzle, you literally need three pieces to put this together.

[00:26:26] 

Just do them really, really well. I think that's going back to what I spoke to before about like, you know, my maturing as a, as a cook that. You learn to filter, you learn to really understand your flavor and why it's actually there. Uh, and what influence it has with the other textures and flavors that are on the plate.

[00:26:44] 

That's only one piece of the puzzle. Obviously, you need to be able to put this forth to a guest and they have to be able to understand the idea that you put on the, on the plate without you going through a 20 page explanation of like, this is where I come from, this is what it is, and this is what I was feeling.

[00:26:58] 

It's like, at the end of the day, it's like, I don't wanna say like nobody cares, but it's like, You should be able to convey, I mean, talk about, you know, like every dish is like an elevator speech, right? Like you've got 20 seconds of, of time for, to capture your audience's attention with a holy shit, that's amazing.

[00:27:14]

And whether that's, you know, a 28 ounce, you know, ribeye chop or, you know, that's, you know, a tiny little piece of something on a spoon, like you've got to capture that. Yeah, and that's kind of what I'm hoping to hone in. No, 

[00:27:27] Josh Sharkey: 

It's so true. I mean, I feel like we could talk about this for hours. Oh, yeah, it's a great topic. I think there's, there's an arc of every chef that wants to do, you know, do something great, where inevitably, no matter what, in some part, usually early in your career, and then it ends, it's like, you know, there is a, a narcissistic piece of what we do, where like, because there's so much instant gratification, where you just start doing things because They're cool and it's, and you want to, you know, get a reaction and, you know, I think one of the hardest things is to like have constraint as you mature as an artisan, right?

[00:28:00] 

So like when you're at this stage of your career, you don't understand well enough. How to execute this thing, but you can execute something simpler. And if you can keep that constraint as you grow, then your food is going to continually be delicious, but you have to be mindful of, yeah, what your, what your constraints are.

[00:28:16] 

Not just, you know, there's also, of course, like economical constraints, but like we, as, as chefs, like the way that you're able to aerose a, a piece of fish, you know, 20 years into your career and two years in your career, it's just different and there's not much you can, it's hard to explain it, but it's just different and, you know, that constraint is like so, it's so important and I feel like that's, it does often, you know, get lost.

[00:28:39] Evan Hennessey: 

It really is. I think there's, there's a huge thing you can, again, you're like, you keep alluding to this, which is awesome, which is why it's such a great conversation where it's like, you know, as you're, as you're learning, you're trying to run as fast as you go and your feet are moving. So, you know, so, so fast.

[00:28:53] 

And as you progress through your career, you realize that you can make longer strides with less effort, you know, that you really simplify what you're doing and you go from looking like, you know, trying to come up with an animal reference where it says, you know, you've got legs going everywhere, feet going everywhere, and you're trying to run in every different direction.

[00:29:09]

Down to the point where you're just this graceful animal kind of just gently moving across the plains and that the elder is moving very efficiently, seamlessly, effortlessly, efficiently, but still getting to the end result. Yeah. Producing, you know, much better. Yeah. Probably the worst analogy in the world, but.

[00:29:33] Josh Sharkey: 

This show is brought to you by, you guessed it, meez. meez helps thousands of restaurants and food service businesses all over the world build profitable menus and scale their business successfully. If you're looking to organize your recipe IP and train your team to put out a consistent product every day in less time than ever before, then meez is just for you.

[00:29:53] 

And you can transform all those old Google Docs and Word Docs and PDFs and spreadsheets and Google Sheets into dynamic, actionable recipes in meez in lightning speed. Plus, stop all that manual work of processing invoices, because meez will digitize all your purchases. Automatically. And there's a built in database of ingredient yields, prep yields, and unit of measure conversions for every ingredient, which means you're going to get laser accurate food costs in a fraction of the time.

[00:30:18] 

Visit www.getmeez.com. That's G E T M E E Z. com to learn more. And check out the show notes moving forward because we're going to be adding promotions and discount codes so that all of you lovely and brilliant meez podcast listeners get a sweet deal on meez.

[00:30:41] Josh Sharkey: 

It reminds me of I had a meal in Brooklyn, it was years ago and I don't remember the name of the restaurant. I'm glad I don't because, you know, it was one of those sort of when Scandinavian food was getting really big and they were being very avant garde with the food and there was like a sous vide flat iron steak with like a, you know, uh, some sort of caramelized leek and everything.

[00:31:00] 

The idea was great. Right. And they sous vided it perfectly, actually. But then they cut it with the grain and And I'm like, you know, like it doesn't matter how many cool techniques you have. There's, there's some, you know, learn the fundamentals and then, and then you can, you can grow from there. And I think that's, you see it all the time.

[00:31:18] 

And I don't know if there's a way to get around it when you're a young cook or young, any really craft. I think it's just something that you just start to play around with. But if you have somebody as a mentor that can help you like have that restraint. 

[00:31:31] Evan Hennessey: 

Yeah, it goes a long way and I think in many ways to it's like a million people have said is like you have to go through that not necessarily say it's like a right of passes, but you've got to go through all those like weird ideas and you know, failures and all that other stuff in order to actually learn.

[00:31:44]

The true way is to like how food works. It's use your example, like, you know, why wouldn't you cut it that way? Well, what if you turned your knife slightly differently here? Like, or he's just like, man, maybe I should not cut it with the green, you know, just little things like that, that like you're all about that.

[00:31:59] 

The fancier technique or like, look at what I put on top or, you know, I turned olive oil powder. It's like, cool. You still can't cut your steak right. And your brouhaha sucks. 

[00:32:08] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. And stories and ideas are important. They have to be delivered with like also, you know, great food, you know, because you're starting this program with staging and because of your career, I have to imagine that you have a pretty interesting, maybe not novel, but at least a pretty smart approach to training and sort of mentoring your cooks.

[00:32:27] 

And, you know, we were talking about knowledge as a commodity and because now it's so available. So I'm curious, like how you think about like. the advantages and disadvantages of a cook that's starting their career today versus when you started, you know, your career decades ago.

[00:32:42] Evan Hennessey: 

A huge difference between those two.

eras the week and I can actually call it that, um, he's literally the internet like when I started cooking that wasn't looking things up on the internet and websites and social media didn't exist, you know, so I had my nose in books, you know, that I was constantly studying like Charlie Trotter's books, you know, Jack Pepin and like those are the books that I that my nose where it was constantly crammed into to learn technique and flavor.

[00:33:07] Evan Hennessey: 

And then I guess at that point, like avant garde flavor or just like creative, like the fact that like Trotter was putting, you know, meat sauces with vegetables, people were like, you can't do that. So we're breaking boundaries kind of at that point. Flash forward to, you know, now is that there is with the internet, everything is just so many ideas and I have this wonderful CDP on my staff who is just a hair over 21 years old, just, you know, graduated culinary school.

[00:33:34] 

And he is the epitome of, like, the excited cook. He's so in it, so dialed in, absolutely loves it, like, works on recipes at home, is constantly, you know, asking questions. It's like, it's literally, like, I love it. You know, as a teacher, it's like, I absolutely love his drive. And he knows this. I'm not, like, talking behind his back right now.

[00:33:51] 

It's, um, is to hone in those thoughts, you know, is to really dial those in. And I think that that is a huge part. And he's mentioned this and he and I have this great conversation, which is constantly just ongoing, you know, conversations about it, about it's awesome to have the, all these ideas. And I want you to have them.

[00:34:07] 

I don't want you to stop thinking in the way you are, because it's the way that your mind works, and I appreciate that. What we're working on is taking those hundred ideas and it's like a self filter being able to figure out like what actually works. Why would it work? Where would it go? What does it have a place with?

[00:34:24]

This leads into something that we actually have in the kitchen. We have three huge whiteboards up in the kitchen, and it's a dual process, meaning one that we want our guests to see into our thought process. How do we create dishes? How do we create? And that's cool. We want people to see literally behind the scenes, behind the scenes.

[00:34:42] 

We first start with. The idea and the idea is like, does it have a purpose and this satisfies the idea of, um, you're not just creating a project for creating a project, you know, how many times have you been in, you know, in a kitchen and in a stage or an intern comes up with like this half deli of like, you know, mashed up chives is like, chef, I got you, you know, here's your chives.

[00:35:03] 

And here's the scrap. I thought maybe we could create this little oil and we could do this thing. You're like, okay. Don't give me another project because then you're just creating projects for projects, but everything needs to have a purpose So if we're creating like we have a an arsenal of garum's going right now, which is great Do we know what that will end up being?

[00:35:21] 

No but we know that within our food that those things will all have a purpose and So we're creating with that that has to satisfy the first idea And then we move into does it have a purpose, like where is it going to go? And then we start morphing it into like, we can start possibly combining it with other flavors.

[00:35:38] 

And we haven't even built the dish yet. We're literally just saying, okay, we've got this beautiful scallop garum that could possibly go with like a maitake mushroom over the fire. Like we just glaze it with that. Stop the idea right there. Just put that on paper. And so it goes up on the whiteboard. And then we move it into where its final possible destination would be, is to start placing it.

[00:35:57] 

I mean, then we start really bringing the dish together. And that's pulling these little flavor pieces of which we've created, you know, two thought processes ago. Now they start to come in, and this is literally the, the out in the open thought process on how we get to a dish. And I thought it's our best way to organize a lot of these things so that, you know, if you see it up on a whiteboard or on, on, you know, just sort of out in the open, I guess, then you're constantly walking by it.

[00:36:21] 

Not only are you always thinking about it because you're seeing it, but it really helps you to hone in on those ideas and how to manifest that. 

[00:36:29] Josh Sharkey: 

I love that. You know, it's great too, because it's, it's sort of a microcosm of what is so important. If starting any business as well, and this is just sort of a second order of that is just asking, making sure you know why you're doing it, because it's so easy to get lost and start adding all kinds of other things and layering on top and getting overcomplicated because you forgot why you're actually doing the thing.

[00:36:50] Evan Hennessey: 

Right. It's so smart. Yeah, you get so far off the actual mark that you're like, I don't even know what I was doing in the first place.

[00:36:56] Josh Sharkey: 

Well, you know, speaking of like that cook and any cook, I'm curious, like I have this, like, my team probably gets annoyed because I say it so often, but, um, I have this philosophy that every mistake that happens in a business.

[00:37:08] 

Is what's my fault right as the, as the owner and then that trickles down, right? Because there's only four things that could have gone wrong. Either I hired the wrong person for the wrong role, I didn't train them well, I didn't manage them the way they need to be managed, or I didn't inspire them the right way.

[00:37:23] 

And you know, anytime something goes wrong, it tends to be one of those things. I, there's very few, like just bad apples in the entire world, but I'm curious, like how you think about hiring a team. Granted, I know it's just hard to hire and find people, but like the, you know, the right. Experience versus someone that you are so clear that you could, you could nurture this person and train them the right way.

[00:37:45] 

And how much of that is on you versus on them being able to, you know, absorb it. 

[00:37:50] Evan Hennessey: 

Sure. That's such a great question. It's, and literally that responsibility falls in all those categories, you know, that it starts with me that when we make it known that we're hiring for a certain position at that point on before even having a conversation with an incoming cook or chef that I kind of already know.

[00:38:08] 

What I need as a person and as a talent level in that role, and there's a flexible than that because I know that obviously that I can, you know, teach up to what I need, what I need to be accomplished. But even with that, it's like that cook now needs to come to the table with, they already need to come to the table with a certain experience level so that they can comprehend what it is that I need them to do.

[00:38:28] 

They need to have at least a sense of the bigger picture, not just like, I'm a great cook, please give me a chance. That person right there, I'm a great cook, please give me a chance, is one of the last people that I would hire. I really look for people who want to grow, want to learn, have good worldly experience, or at least have their mind on that.

[00:38:50]

They understand that there is a bigger picture, that there's more than just their station, you know, involved in the operation. They understand, at least for me specifically, that we're a tiny little team. So that the way that the person that I'm looking for has to fit like really has to fit and it's not always the person with, you know, the gigantic Michelin star restaurant, nor is it, you know, the person who's, you know, fresh out of high school, just hoping to get their first job.

[00:39:19] 

It's somewhere in the mix of all that. And. You know, you could have an incredible amount of high end experience and be like an egotistical asshole. You could also have all the same experience and be like the most chillest dude I've ever met. That's the guy that I'm gonna, that I'm gonna hire. It's because you need to not only gel with me and with the team, but you need to be able to work with our guests and talk with them and speak with them and be able to have conversations.

[00:39:44] 

Many ways, like, you know, very candidly and very openly because they're going to ask you like all kinds of stuff and you, I need you to be able to handle that. So my requirements are very different from what the next chef's or next restaurant's requirements. 

[00:39:57] Josh Sharkey: 

How do you identify that? Like, how do you interview for that?

[00:39:59] Evan Hennessey: 

It’s a conversation. I'm not much like you and I, you know. Are having, right? It's like, how are you? You know, I just like, it really is. Like, I don't, I kind of have a guideline as to what I'd like to know. And some of that is reflected in the application that we have for this, uh, the staging program, you know, it's like, I love to know generally what your experience is.

[00:40:18] 

And, and one of the things I'd love to know is what is, um, you know, have you traveled, where's your favorite places, you know, to be, what do you do on your days off? What is your favorite restaurant and why? And I'm not necessarily looking for like, Oh, I've been to La Bernardin and it was, you know, it's like, no, no, no, no.

[00:40:32] 

Like legit. What's your favorite restaurant and why? And because I want to know how, how they connect with food. And that's what I'm looking for out of that, that question. If your connection with food is that it looks cool and you appreciate formal service, like, I don't really know if, you know, you're going to fit in here because you're all, it's too, it's too rigid.

[00:40:49] 

Yeah. And I'm not trying to say that that's wrong. You know, I haven't interviewed any wrong people. I need to know that I can have. A conversation with that person about anything at any point, whether, you know, they did something wrong, something's really messed up with the restaurant, whatever the conversation may be that I can walk up to that person, we can talk about it.

[00:41:09] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah, it sounds like the right aspiration is far more important than the right experience. It's funny, it reminds me of a couple of things. There's Zappos, I don't know if they still do it, but they used to, if a candidate got far enough along in the interview process, they would offer them like 5,000 not to take the job.

[00:41:24] 

And it was their way of clearly identifying people that didn't want it enough and it cost them some money, but oftentimes, I mean, you know, it costs more money to train, you know, people that leave. And then there's, you know, we, at meez we employ this thing called the, the A method of hiring. It was just a, it's a methodology that I learned from this coach of mine.

[00:41:43] 

I mean, there's a whole, you know, I can put it in the, in the show notes, but. One thing that I found really profound was that most people get wrong is that they just hire a good person and they're not super clear on what is it specifically that I want the results of this person to do, like what results do I want out of them, not what's the job description and not like what is a, what is this person supposed to do it because of the role, but like result do I need for my company and then get really specific about that, create a scorecard so that when you're interviewing people, you're not, you know, you're looking for, Specifically why they would drive those results.

[00:42:18] 

And in this case, you know, if the result is, you know, the, you know, the interaction with the customers and things like that, and the experience that you drove, then yeah, like that conversation is probably far more valuable than where have you worked and do you know how to brunoise shallot? 

[00:42:31] Evan Hennessey: 

I mean, I've had quite an assortment of people that have come through the kitchen and, you know, we've had, you know, there's a gentleman that worked me.

[00:42:39] 

Did an internship out of high school and, you know, literally within the first 10 minutes of working with somebody, if they are something special, and this guy, like I've worked with him, I was like, this guy is like, I'm not going to lose track of this kid. He worked for me for a while, you know, finished high school and everything stayed on full time.

[00:42:56] 

And then, uh, eventually went to, uh, CIA to continue culinary education. Came back on his breaks and just like work, you know, stepped into the kitchen and we worked in seamlessly graduated from school. And then he went to Next in Chicago, started there and he's at Alinea right now. And he, like, we're constantly chatting.

[00:43:14] 

In fact, when he comes home on break, like for breaks or things like that, like, like we go out rock climbing together. And, um, that's just like, like that kid literally came from like next to no experience whatsoever, but there was just something inside that I was like, I know this guy is got something. In there that I want to work with and I want to cultivate and I'm not going to lose track of.

[00:43:36] 

And so, you know, here we are just a couple of years down the line and he and I are in great communication and everything. And he literally text me at various points in the night, like, you know, chef, I'm so tweaked out right now. I was like, like service was not, it was so hard today. It's like this, I don't know if I'm drowning or like what's going on.

[00:43:51] 

And like, I mean, we just, we have a great conversation about, you know, slow it down, break it down, what's going on and how was the, and we like, and we talked through that, which, which is great. And like, that's the kind of person that. That I'd love to work with. Is that right there.

[00:44:03] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah, I love that. And those relationships are so important, you know. Someone doesn't have to come work for you right away. You know, who knows, he might run your restaurant in 10 years.

[00:44:12] Evan Hennessey: 

Exactly. And that's the thing, it's like, you know, to go back to the, the stocking thing, or just the industry as a whole, is that there is Whether we're speaking about my restaurant or just anybody else's restaurant, it's like we are just, we are a piece of a much bigger puzzle.

[00:44:25] 

The better, in my opinion, that we can affect that whole puzzle, the better the industry as a whole does. And therefore, food is better, morale is better, you know, physical, mental, everything is just better, better, better. We have better restaurants come on the scene, you know, it just, it just, it all just helps.

[00:44:42] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah, yeah, 100%. You said something the last time we spoke that I really want to sort of double click on because I think about it so much Just in terms of how to get the team to execute and when you were Per Se You said something along the lines of like they've mechanized so many of the dishes so the cooks don't really learn they just kind of like follow paint by numbers kind of thing right and You know, I think about this a lot because consistency is one of the most important things in any like restaurant, right?

[00:45:09] 

So if guests want to know, like they're going to get the same thing when they come back. So you have to, how do you balance providing like autonomy of thought in the execution of the food with your team? With also creating the right systems so that things are always consistent for the guest. You know what I mean?

[00:45:25] Evan Hennessey: 

Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. So first and foremost, we have a recipe book. You know, everything is we reverse weigh everything down to grams so that we know exactly. So when we create something, because obviously when you create a new idea, new dish, new flavor, whatever it is, like you have no idea how many grams of this or how many grams of that, that it's going to take.

[00:45:41] 

So we cook initially in a very free flowing method, but yet reverse weigh everything. So when we get to that end result, we knew that it took. 317, you know, grams of dashi. It took, you know, 2.5 grams of this. And so we have that, that measurement all dialed in when we get to that very, you know, very fluidly thought dish.

[00:46:02] 

And from there, so now we've created this recipe, we make it again. And so every time we weigh it out, you know, you're, you're obviously, you're tasting everything all the way through the entire way, all the way down to like, before it hits the plate. And then. There's this, and we literally have conversations all the way through service, like continuously throughout service, you know, everybody's tasting sauces, and I'm always very adamant about that.

[00:46:23] 

It's like, just because a sauce or a component or a vegetable, whatever comes off my station, everybody tastes it all the time. So that way, all of us, all the palates in the kitchen are on the same page constantly, so that we know exactly flavor wise what we're, what we're looking. Recipes are awesome. As guidelines, flavor memories and taste memories are huge because an ingredient changes throughout the year when you work with, you know, constantly changing obviously in the environment, but you know, a carrot today is not a carrot.

[00:46:54] 

Tomorrow is not a carrot next week. So that has to be taken into effect of like if you're looking for a desired sweetness, say we're making like carrot molasses, right? So the sugar content of a carrot picked at one part of the year is not the same as the sugar content. Picked at a different part of the year, so our recipe, therefore, not to say is null and void, but it has to be able to flex within that because we understand that.

[00:47:17] 

Okay, well, you need to add some kind of a sugar here. Do we have a like a beet sugar that we could add to that? Like whatever, whatever it be like, we have to constantly be Thanks. So dialed into those things and that's how we create those consistencies within it. So it really is to answer the questions like it's a combination of both and it has to be for us.

[00:47:35] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah, it's such a sticky but interesting conversation because you know, at scale that just doesn't happen, right? You know, you have a restaurant with 150 locations. Of course, an Idaho potato in September is very different from an Idaho potato in, you know, in July, no matter what, no matter where you're buying them from.

[00:47:54] 

And the same thing goes for the bricks level of a pear and things like that. You have to have a base. Anybody that says that we don't use recipes, I'm like, I'm sorry, dude, you're, good luck. You know, you have to sort of base, you know, like, if you don't have like some sort of semblance of like, yes, this nuoc cham is 20 grams of garlic and, you know, 20 grams of shallot and, Like you don't have anywhere to start.

[00:48:12] 

And so you need that. It's funny. I remember Cesar at Bouley saying this like many years ago. He's like, we need to start a school on just seasoning because the minute you make something that starts to change, especially things that are liquid, that's it, right? You make a sauce. If you're keeping it warm, it's immediately changing, right?

[00:48:30] 

It's slowly starting to reduce a little bit. And all those things are, you know, and like, how do you re season it? And what is it supposed to taste like? What's the viscosity supposed to be? That is such a hard thing to create process for, as opposed to just creating people that understand that. Is that, do you feel like that takes just someone being with you long enough to know the flavor profiles and like how to, you know, season the food the way that you're trying to achieve and the tactics that you guys use?

Or is that something that people just innately know?

[00:49:02] Evan Hennessey:  

I'm hoping that they would come to the table with A level of understanding of that. But then the other part is just us constantly working together to dial in what it is that we're looking for. With the understanding of whatever that element is that this is its effect on the rest of the dish.

[00:49:17] 

Um, and this is why this has this amount of salt or vinegar or whatever may be in it. But yeah, a lot of that is, you know, going back to what I was saying, it was just, it's everybody constantly communicating and being on the same page. It's not about right or wrong, it's about constant communication and staying current with exactly what is happening.

[00:49:36] Josh Sharkey: 

Do you have a forum for that? How do you, is that, is that just a pre shift every day? Like how do you like create that sort of medium for conversation with the team? 

[00:49:44] Evan Hennessey: 

It's weird because I know a lot of people will do like, yeah, pre shift meetings and things like that. And it's like, ours just kind of happened.

[00:49:50] 

Randomly or impromptu and it's, you know, sometimes like the beginning of the day, like, Oh, whatever, like if I walk in the kitchen, sometimes I have like, you know, I have note cards everywhere, everywhere. It's like, it's insane. You know, here are the things that I want to discuss and, you know, that we go through that kind of stuff.

[00:50:04] 

And then the rest of it is just going up to, you know, all the way up to service when you're getting sauces, you know, lined up and everything. So everybody's tasting all the sauces and. Yeah, it's not necessarily that. I mean, there's, you know, discussion on like any allergies or menu adjustments or anything like that, that we, you know, out of place things that we have to do, or that conversation starts from like minute one and goes all the way through the last, the last guest at the table.

[00:50:27] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. Yeah. You know, when you're thinking about sort of motivating your team, if we asked one of your cooks today, why they work at Stages or Living Room, what do you think they would say? 

[00:50:38] Evan Hennessey: 

I think the biggest thing is that. At least I hope this is what they would say is that I create an, is that I create an atmosphere where they feel like they belong and they’re safe, that they feel that they learn constantly so that they are open to that conversation that we were just talking about, that they're comfortable to bring a thought, an idea, a dish idea or whatever, you know, to me.

[00:51:02] 

My sous chef said to me the other day, just totally out of blue. She's like, I just wanted to tell you that I really appreciate that. When I bring an idea for a dish to you, that you don't just say no, or no, we're not going to do that. That you literally take, you stop everything you're doing and you talk it through with me.

[00:51:21] 

And if the end result is no, we're not going to do that. We at least have discussed. Why, and, and how we can evolve that in that idea into possibly something that we could use later if we're not using it now. Yeah. And so I think that that's. That's probably, I hope that's what they would say. 

[00:51:37] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah, I love that, man. What do you do when someone makes a mistake? Like, how do you handle it? 

[00:51:43] Evan Hennessey: 

Yeah, yeah. This is something that actually, like, that I learned, actually, that I saw it Per Se, and I thought it was great. There's one small exception. It's like, I don't yell at people. Is that when a mistake has been made that whoever it is that has made the mistake that basically entire team kind of comes over and talks about it.

[00:52:02]

This is what was wrong. This is the adjustment we're going to make. And this is the direction the direction we're going that way again. It's not about this person screwed up and they don't feel, you know, pull out of the crowd or pull out a line. They don't feel chastised. They don't feel pushed. Down about themselves.

[00:52:15] 

They understand that something went wrong. They may have caused it, but there's something went wrong and that this is how we're going to fix it. And this is what we're going to do in the future to avoid that. I mean, it's a restaurant and it's, and it's a kitchen and sometimes waste happens as much as you don't want that to occur.

[00:52:32] 

It's kind of a, it's a part of the game. Like, you know, if you're getting into a restaurant, like, and you're going to cry and scream about every little particle of something that somebody screws up, I was like, dude, pick another career. Um, Because that's just part of the game. So it's like, I choose not to cry about that. And like, the bigger thing is getting it right. That's more important. 

[00:52:52] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. You know, I think about this all the time, especially with my team. And a lot of people on my team, because I have a, I run a tech company now, not a restaurant anymore. Yeah. They know way more about what they do than I do. It's a very different, different world.

[00:53:04] 

And I think, you know, we have expectations of what we, You know, of what we want and as, you know, in the kitchens for a very long time, it's starting to change. It was just, it was wrong, you get yelled at, right? And, and I think, I do a 360 review every year. One of the biggest outcomes this year that I learned was that I don't ask why enough when things go wrong.

[00:53:23] 

And it goes back to what I was, what I was saying about like, you know, anything that goes wrong, I think it's ultimately my fault, right? Like, I either didn't hire the right person, or, you know, I didn't train them well, or manage them well, or they're not, you know, they're not inspired. And so, when someone makes a mistake, now I try to step back, and I have to, like, have a, I have a notecard for this, like, ask why.

[00:53:40] 

Because I, I usually, my normal mode would just be to talk about why it's wrong. And now I stop and say, Hey, why did you do that? You know, what happened? What was going on in your mind? What were you thinking about? What happened to that day? And then that helps me understand like, okay, maybe I didn't, I wasn't clear enough about the process or maybe I didn't set up the right environment for this to happen.

[00:54:00] 

I wasn't clear enough about principles or process, or maybe this. I thought this was the right person for this thing and it wasn't and it sucks, by the way, you know, and you realize like, oh, yeah, everything is kind of your fault, but you know, that asking of why I think is so has been so helpful for me of like understanding why, you know, it's not just my perception of what went wrong, but maybe there's something else at play anyways, that was a tangent, but 

[00:54:27] Evan Hennessey: 

I think that I, that I go into a lot of those things, not with the idea that like, I know everything and I'm right. I that, that's how I start with a lot of that stuff. And that's one of the benefits of having sort of that group discussion versus just that one-on-one discussion. Whereas like, let's pretend you, I don't know, you burned an onion. What's simple example? Or you burned an onion. And so I walk up to, you know, that cook and, and or you know, it says, you know, chef of burnt the onions.

[00:54:55] 

Like, all right, so. What, you know, what did you do? How did you cut them? What was the other interpreters? You break through all the different, the process of it. And then it's like, well, what can we do different? So that you, that doesn't happen. Is it a simple mechanism? Like you forgot to set a timer or, you know, that kind of thing, like whatever it may be, but you allow anybody in that group to have the right answer.

[00:55:13] 

Ultimately I give the check mark saying like, yes, that's what we're going to go with. But I absolutely open the floor to like anybody at any moment could have the right answer. It's not just me. And that's how I learned, you know, not just as a cook, but as a person and as a leader that at any moment, somebody could have that right answer.

[00:55:31] 

And if I'm not open to that, or if I shut down anybody else's ideas, we will never achieve forward progress. It'll just be like a singular line. 

[00:55:40] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. What I took away from our first conversation was. It's really clear that you, I mean, obviously you make really delicious food and you have a really great restaurant, but that you're thinking a lot about just not just how to like make great food, but how to, how to move our industry forward.

[00:55:53] 

And I think that this stage program that you're creating, it's just going to make you that much better of a leader and a stalwart in the, in the industry. So I'm super stoked that you're, that you're doing it. 

[00:56:02] Evan Hennessey: 

Oh, me too. It's a, it's a, it's a win win. You know what I mean? Not only did the cook coming in will. Get something out of it. But I, you know, I also, you know, I guess selfishly, but like, you know, I also get something out of it. Like I learned more about mentorship and how to help others in, in how to progress. And every person that will walk through our kitchen door to do this is going to help me evolve. This program, which is awesome. 

[00:56:25] Josh Sharkey: 

Can you just share a little bit about what everyone should know about how to apply, how to learn more about the program?

[00:56:29] Evan Hennessey: 

Yeah, yeah. So we, we put up a post on my Instagram and then I have a link in my Instagram bio to get to the application for it. We break down the The program into four quarters throughout the year and it's a Google form.

[00:56:43]

So click on the link in the, in the bio on my Instagram, it'll take you there. It's a handful of questions. You know, a lot of it is the stuff that we've kind of discussed throughout, you know, this conversation and they just hit submit. It's not a stack of papers on my desk. It's like I go through every one of these, like so meticulously and to the point where it's like, I feel like I kind of know this person.

[00:56:59] 

And so that's kind of how they get involved in it. I was super. Super thrilled and beyond words at not just the, like the volume of people that applied, but the geographical range from which they, from where they applied, it was everybody from a few people in coming from Dover or just like a, a, a surrounding town, a handful from like New York, upstate New York, handful from New Jersey, Portland, Maine, Minnesota, you know, it's like people are applying from kind of.

[00:57:29] 

Yeah. You know, we'll, we'll say so far the East side of the country, which is awesome. And that to me, like, and again, like going back to when you and I had talked before, it's like that so many times that right now the younger generation of the restaurant industry is being written off as like, there's nobody there.

[00:57:44] 

Who's going to take over? What's the next thing? Everybody's quitting. Everybody's leaving the kitchen. And it's like, Man, I'm here to tell you that there are, those people are out there. They absolutely are. And they want to learn and they want to move and they want to be heard. And I'm beyond psyched to be able to offer something, that platform.

[00:58:04] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. Maybe just at a high level, the mechanics of it. So it's five days. And I think they get a meal, right? They get to eat at the restaurant after the end. 

[00:58:11] Evan Hennessey: 

Correct. Yeah. So their, their first night will be, and this is going to be depending on the exact schedule that we lay out, but we will say within that timeframe, they will be a guest of ours in the kitchen.

[00:58:21] 

They'll go through the whole thing, you know, come in and start in the Living Room and then move into the kitchen. They'll experience that. They'll be part of our, you know, prep day. They'll be part of the service, uh, through the whole thing with the ending goal that their final day will be this presentation to guests in the Living Room.

[00:58:36] 

That's awesome. They will walk away with 50 percent of the profit of that, of that evening. So again, so it's not an unpaid thing. No, 

[00:58:43] Josh Sharkey: 

I mean, honestly, like if you think about, you know, I mean, your typical size is just unpaid. This one, you're getting to eat at the restaurant, which most of the time, pay if that happens.

[00:58:54] 

Right. Correct. Yeah. And also you're getting to appreciate 50 percent of the, of the income from, from the menu. You're actually probably making money off of this. It's pretty awesome. Yeah. All right. So we're gonna wrap up here. I don't know if you think about this, but you know, fast forward five, you know, five, 10 years from now, what, what stages and Living Room, like, where are you going to be at?

[00:59:13] Evan Hennessey: 

It's such a hard, it's always a hard question to answer. 

[00:59:17] Josh Sharkey: 

Um, I know I hate this this question, by the way. 

[00:59:20] Evan Hennessey: 

I totally, I got one of these encounters when like the business class and I totally ripped it to shreds. And I answered the question of why I shouldn't have to answer that like on an A on the paper. But for me, it's, I mean, it's continual growth.

[00:59:32]

Yeah. You know, I do have my eye in, you know, uh, other projects, um, in the works. And that's kind of as far as I can probably go with that. But for me, it's just, it's constant growth. I do truly hope that the Living Room in Stages will always be there, you know, and continue to evolve and change and, and grow as, as I do.

[00:59:50] Evan Hennessey: 

And be a constant, you know, positive training ground for chefs and for food and whatnot. But, you know, as a chef, it's like the ultimate goal is that just to get to the role of chef and be like, that's it. I did it. You know, it's like, like my career needs to evolve as well, you know, so that as I've achieved, you know, being a chef and now the, you know, the owner and the chef of the restaurant.

[01:00:11] 

And so it was like, my idea is like, what more can I do? Like, what are the other parts of my career that I want to grow into? And, you know, again, like we'll see how the staging thing and sort of, I love the idea of mentorship. I absolutely love it. We'll see kind of what direction that takes. And then, you know, I do have, again, like I said, like got my hands in some other projects. That are not too far off. 

[01:00:35] Josh Sharkey: 

I don't know if you think about this and, and this is not leading the witness by any means, but I think that the. Yeah, I mean, there's some great culinary schools out there, but yeah, you know, and then they sort of do externships. But I think the externship is actually what the school should be.

[01:00:51] 

Yeah, have you ever thought about stages turning into something more than than a stage in some sort of school? 

[01:00:56] Evan Hennessey: 

Big time and actually like Not to say my problem with culinary school, but like it's the, it's the issue of like that we'll call it the institutional side of the education where it's like, you know, there's this pre programmed format and like these checklist things you need to learn.

[01:01:11] 

Oh, it's, it's just like, there's so much more out there that I think that should be taught. It's an excellent question because I don't exactly know what that would look like. I love the idea of it. I love that it would, the idea that it would evolve into something bigger. I just don't know what that is yet.

[01:01:26] 

And I think I just, I need to let this happen for a bit to kind of give some kind of shape right now. Right now it's kind of just floating cloud of like possibilities. And over the course of time that will start to take shape. And as far as like, you know, when that hits the ground, what that will look like, I'm not totally sure.

[01:01:41] Josh Sharkey: 

That's actually, that's awesome to hear, right? Cause now you got, you have a lot to, you have a lot to explore with this, with this program. 

[01:01:47] Evan Hennessey: 

So, yeah, no, I think that's great. It's a, it's a good problem. 

[01:01:50] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. Yeah. Well, as we wrap up, is there anything else you want to share with this audience? 

[01:01:55] Evan Hennessey: 

Take the puzzle apart, but put it back together in a different way. You know, really look at the industry as a whole, you know, hope to look at, look outside your own box. And as the industry is, is changing. quickly and has changed so much in the past five years. How can we as a collective group really help it? You as your small little piece in the puzzle and then how your small little piece affects everything else.

[01:02:18] Evan Hennessey: 

How, what can we do if they can really make restaurants? Special to us and this industry really grow in a, in a great and positive way. That's what I really want to see.

[01:02:26] Josh Sharkey: 

I love that, man. That's a great place to end. This was awesome. Yeah. Thanks, man. Yeah. I appreciate the time. The snow's not going away, but 

[01:02:36] Evan Hennessey: We got a little while. Yeah, we're just getting started. 

[01:02:44] Josh Sharkey: 

Thanks for tuning into The meez Podcast. The music from the show is a remix of the song Art Mirror by an old friend, hip hop artist, Fresh Daily. For show notes and more, visit getmeez.com/podcast. That's G E T M E E Z dot com forward slash podcast. If you enjoyed the show, I'd love it if you can share it with fellow entrepreneurs and culinary pros and give us a five star rating wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[01:03:07] 

Keep innovating, don't settle, make today a little bit better than yesterday, and remember, it's impossible for us to learn what we think we already know. See you next time.