Chef Caroline Glover on Balancing New Motherhood and Maintaining a Successful Restaurant

#51. In this week's captivating conversation, our host welcomes a culinary powerhouse, Caroline Glover, owner of restaurant Annette and bar Traveling Mercies in Aurora, Colorado. With accolades including a James Beard award and recognition as one of Food and Wine magazine's Best New Chefs in America, Caroline's journey through the culinary world is nothing short of inspiring.

Tune in as Caroline shares her fascinating career trajectory, from honing her skills under the mentorship of April Bloomfield at The Spotted Pig in New York City to her transformative experience working at Eckerton Hill Farm. Discover how Caroline navigates the intricate balance between parenthood and professionalism, delving into the unique challenges faced by women in the culinary industry.

In a candid exchange, our host and Caroline embark on a poignant exploration of the trials and triumphs of running a business, particularly in the realm of food. This episode transcends the boundaries of a typical interview, offering listeners a compelling glimpse into the heart and soul of restaurant entrepreneurship.

Join us for a soul-stirring dialogue that promises to resonate with anyone who has experienced the joys and complexities of balancing passion, parenthood, and profession. Whether you're a seasoned chef or an avid food enthusiast, this episode is sure to leave you feeling inspired and understood.

Where to find Caroline Glover: 

• Instagram

Where to find host Josh Sharkey:

• Instagram
• LinkedIn
• TikTok
• Twitter

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In this episode, we cover:

(02:43) Caroline's background in the restaurant industry
(5:22) How working at a farm inspired how Caroline cooked
(11:18) Thoughts on farm to table
(13:39) Being a mom and owning a restaurant
(23:51) How COVID changed the way Caroline thought about her business
(31:26) How Caroline maintains consistency as she starts to scale
(39:27) How Caroline approached mistakes in the past and how she approaches them now
(44:54) Caroline's thoughts on working with women in the kitchen
(52:03) What makes Caroline really angry
(55:58) The goal of finding joy in something other than parenting and the restaurant

Transcript

[00:00:00] Josh Sharkey: 

You're listening to season two of The meez Podcast. I'm your host, Josh Sharkey, the founder and CEO of meez, a culinary operating system for food professionals. On the show, we're going to talk to high performers in the food business, everything from chefs to CEOs, technologists, writers, investors, and more about how they innovate and operate and how they consistently execute at a high level.

[00:00:24] 

And I would really love it if you could drop us a five star review anywhere that you listen to your podcast. That could be Apple, that could be Spotify, could be Google. I'm not picky. Anywhere works, but I really appreciate the support. And as always, I hope you enjoy the show.

[00:00:43] 

Today's guest is a James Beard award winning chef, winner of Best New Chefs in America from Food and Wine magazine, and the current owner of Restaurant Annette in Aurora, Colorado, Caroline Glover. Caroline spent a couple years working for April Bloomfield at The Spotted Pig in New York City before really, well, diverging her career path for a bit, working for a farm, namely Eckerton Hill Farm.

[00:01:06] 

I was pretty surprised when I heard this because if you don't know Eckerton Hill, it is an amazing farm and they have some of the best tomatoes in the world. Carolina and I had a pretty cathartic conversation, really, about the impact of becoming a parent on work and on business, and really more importantly, we talk about how much more difficult it is for women, no matter the scenario, to balance being a mother, being a parent, and being a professional.

[00:01:28] 

I can tell you firsthand, you know, my wife, Went through so much giving birth to our two kids while still running her business. And, you know, in the beginning, the kids need the mom so much. And it's pretty weighted towards the mom. And it's a lot. And Caroline and I talk a bit about that. Also, she runs her business with her husband.

[00:01:48] 

The episode turned into a bit like a two way therapy session, to be honest, on the tribulations of running a business, the perception of the value of food and how much we're able to charge for it. And the value to customers of the products that we source as restaurant operators. So I hope that some of you can relate.

[00:02:06] 

And as always, I hope that you enjoy the conversation as much as I do. It's really nice to meet you. I didn't know a ton before Gia reached out and I'm surprised we haven't, you know, met, but I'm really excited to learn more about your background today. So I typically will sort of spout off, like, here's everything about Caroline, but I want to hear from you today. So just so I can learn more, maybe this, uh, and I know, obviously, you You know, CIA, and I know that you, uh, worked for April for a long time, you want to change spirit, which obviously we're going to talk about, which is awesome, but maybe fill in the blanks of, you know, how you got to where you are 

today.

[00:02:43] Caroline Glover: 

Yeah. So I, I recently got into the industry as the Chili's to go girl and the small college town that I'm from. And then I was just obsessed. Yeah. I'm in Texas in college station. And so Chili's was a very busy, you know, number one visited restaurant. And that kind of like just gave me the bug for wanting to be in the industry.

[00:03:02] 

I was 16 though. And so. I went to college and then after two years dropped out just because I wasn't happy. I didn't like know what I was doing. I moved out to Yosemite national park, worked in a kitchen out there and a bunch of people from the Culinary Institute of America were doing their externships there and basically just like convinced me, like, you want to go to college, you want to go to culinary school.

[00:03:24] 

So I ended up just driving back to New York with them when their externship was up and had applied and was accepted and went to culinary school. And then that got me into New York city just because I was out in New York and I wanted to work for a woman chef and April was really the top of the game at that time.

[00:03:41] 

So I was at The Spotted Pig. I think I became a sous chef within a year or so. I think I was 21, 22. Was there for a bit, got really burnt out, ended up moving to Pennsylvania where Eckerton Hill Farm is and there's a tomato farm or it is a tomato pepper farm, other stuff, but Tim Stark and met my husband, Nelson was there running the farm.

[00:04:05] 

He went to NYU with one of my friends and we ended up farming in Vermont and then moving to Paonia, which is like a very small farming town in Colorado. Lived in a yurt, did the air B or the, um, bed and breakfast thing, got into farming for a bit, then wanted to get back into kitchens and ended up in Denver, um, cause I wanted to learn how to work with wood fire and there was a, a great road, wood fired restaurant here called Acorn.

[00:04:31] 

And then after almost three years there, I ended up opening my own spot. 

[00:04:35] Josh Sharkey: 

So cool. I didn't realize you worked at Eckerton. I did, yeah. That's so awesome. I mean, we've bought, must be so many thousand tons of tomatoes that we've bought from Eckerton over the years. When I was working for Kunz, we would get literally like a hundred cases to make the tomato concasse.

[00:04:52] 

Yes. Hours and hours because their, I mean, their tomatoes are amazing. 

[00:04:55] Caroline Glover: 

They're amazing. Yeah, just really beautiful. And that was like kind of in the era. I don't know what it's like anymore, but in the era of like overeducated, you know, college students going to work on farms. And so there was like, so there was, you know, like, so like four or five of us out there that just wanted to, you know, unplug and, you know, work in the tomato fields all day.

[00:05:20] 

We're still all good friends, but yeah. 

[00:05:22] Josh Sharkey: 

I imagine there must be so much, I mean, every time you go to farm, there's so much you pick up when you see like purslane growing around the corners of the cabbage or something, and you see like, you know, things that are growing together or just like so much inspiration that had to impact like how you cook right?

[00:05:35] Caroline Glover: 

No, absolutely. I think though The Spotted Pig was incredible. It was such a machine, but you know, all of the produce. Ended up in the basement, right? Like it goes down the little, the hatch doors and there's a whole crew down there that preps everything. And then when we got there for service, we'd just go get it.

[00:05:51] 

Like our garlic was peeled. Our shallots were cut because it was just such a beast of a restaurant that we didn't do a ton of prep. So I just got to a point where I was like, I don't even know how this grows. I don't even know what this looks like. And so that was, and April was such a particular person that, you know, One summer we didn't use tomatoes because they weren't to her standard, you know, and so that I think that was another part of it that I was like, what happens to all this produce that doesn't get used by these top chefs and they usually buy 500 pounds a week.

[00:06:22] 

And now all of a sudden we're not buying any. So yeah, I feel like that definitely made me want to work on farms to understand every, you know, the whole process. 

[00:06:32] Josh Sharkey: 

Are there a couple things that you grasp now that you think a lot of people probably don't, that you walked away with? 

[00:06:39] Caroline Glover: 

I think like there's, I think farms are definitely, you know, chefs are like very in tune with farms now, you know, for the most part, when they work with them, but I think just understanding What farmers have to put in, you know, it's not like you just text them and then magically you get the 20 pounds or whatever, you know, I think that there's like, I have way more patience or just like understanding of like, if something doesn't show up or there's a hailstorm or whatever, I think like 10 years ago, I would have been pissed and like, what the fuck?

[00:07:11] 

Like, where is this product? And now it's just like, Yeah, of course. Totally get it. We'll move on to something else today. And I think that definitely helped me just kind of become, I'm not gonna, I hate the word pivot now, but it helps you, like, recognize that you're gonna have to change your game plan. And I think that's an important skill for sure.

[00:07:29] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah, I love that. It's also, I think because things, it's a lot easier to order product today than it was 10 years ago. I remember getting faxes from you know, Blooming Hill Farm. Here's what we have. Choose it. Don't choose it. And that sort of responsiveness to the farm, as opposed to like, you know, proactive, like, here's the things that we want.

[00:07:47] 

It's like, no, here's what we have. It's a little bit more difficult, but it's definitely, you know, a nicer sort of like connection with the farm. 

[00:07:52] Caroline Glover: 

Yeah, for sure. Now it's so funny, the faxes. Yeah, I know. 

[00:07:56] Josh Sharkey: 

Also, faxes used to come for the DoorDash orders at the Grand Pub too, so. So, I don't know anything about Colorado.

[00:08:02] 

I don't think I've ever even been. So I want to talk a little bit about, like, I know you're not from there, which I didn't realize until my assistant sent over some information. I realized, Texas, okay, so maybe she doesn't know a ton, but I'm sure you know More now, three years later than you did, you know, when you first got there, but how is it different from say New York where you're cooking and then, you know, culturally, how's the cuisine different?

[00:08:21] 

How did you have to adjust? Is the palate a little bit different? Is the farming similar? Just anything you can share. I'd love to learn a little bit more about like generally this sort of landscape. 

[00:08:30] Caroline Glover: 

Yeah. So my husband's originally from Colorado and let's see, we moved out here from the East coast almost 12 years ago.

[00:08:37] 

So we've definitely. I think like working in farms out here was really important because you come from the East Coast where There's grapes, there's grape season, there's, you know, a berry season, all these things that aren't really a thing out here. So I think like when I first came out here, I was really frustrated that was like, this sucks.

[00:08:55] 

Like there's no produce and the tomatoes are not the same types of tomatoes. Um, but I would say like in the past 10 years, it has changed exponentially. There's like a lot of farmers that have moved out here from other areas of the country and are wanting to Grow better tomatoes, even though it doesn't stay 80 degrees at night here.

[00:09:15] 

And there's no humidity. So I think that the produce gotten definitely way better. And you're just learning to work with different types of things. So, you know, you just don't like, whenever I go to New York during a market season and I go to the union square market, I'm just like, this is not fair. You know, where I go to LA any time of the year.

[00:09:33] 

And I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? 

[00:09:35] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. What are you working with? I mean, you said you're working with things that you weren't working with before. Like, what are some things that, some products that you work with a lot more now because you're in Colorado? 

[00:09:43] Caroline Glover: 

You know, I mean, this sounds so terrible, but like potatoes, like it's silly, but there are so many different varieties, different times of the year, different types of sweetness, different types of starchiness, you know, like, I think that you just have to kind of dig into what's available.

[00:10:00] 

Um, but also at the same time, like Annette is not a farm to table restaurant. You know, we try to use, um, what's in season when possible, but it's also so easy to get stuff, you know, from, That's the other part, right? Like talking about like how that changes, like you can get Ryan Contropics, you know, you can get passion fruit from a farmer in California, put in a UPS box, you know, shipped out and he packages it.

[00:10:25] 

So I do think like we do work with a lot of other farmers actually across the country or fishermen or, you know, I think that game has changed so much. So it's not like if you want grapefruit, you're going to get it from Mexico, from Sysco, you know, you find the farmer online and you pay a premium. 

[00:10:45] Josh Sharkey: 

There is sometimes this sort of notion of like, well, it's just. Better, or you're supposed to only use local, but it's a choice and it doesn't necessarily mean good or bad. There's lots of, you know, and there's so many things that we use that just will never be that. You want to use lemons and limes in New York, it's not local. You want to, you know, use any more own, you know, I'm picking that brand.

[00:11:06] Josh Sharkey: 

Sorry, but like, you know, fruit puree. But they're delicious and you have to, you know, and you have, and they're more consistent and, you know, it doesn't necessarily, you know, use local when you can, but I do think sometimes it gets a little bit more, you know, like beaten up. 

[00:11:18] Caroline Glover: 

It does. And I feel like the places that are truly doing farm to table are busting their ass to do it, right?

[00:11:24] 

Like it's hard and it's a whole different game of, um, sourcing and cooking. And I want to make sure those people get that recognition because I think they're far and few between, even though farm to table is used consistently for. every restaurant. But I think like in terms of like Colorado cuisine too, it's changed a ton.

[00:11:43] 

Whenever I first moved to Denver, you know, there were like three restaurateurs here and had kind of been here since the 80s, 90s. Cowtown and we're kind of bringing this elevated cuisine and Kind of had like every block, you know, in Denver and I would say since the pandemic, you know, it made a lot of those people have to close because it just didn't make sense to have five or six, 10,000 square foot spaces.

[00:12:11] 

And so now you're seeing a lot more independent, you know, Chefs or front of the house, people going out and opening their own spots. So I feel like that has changed the scene a lot. It's way far behind a lot of other cities, but a lot of people are moving here too. From other cities and bringing, you know, they're upping their game and it's making us all have to push harder.

[00:12:31] 

And so I think that's fine, you know? Yeah. But I think like we're far behind, you know, New York or LA or Chicago, but I do think it's like moving pretty rapidly now. 

[00:12:42] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. Yeah. It just, it's cool that it's happening so much faster now, you know, there's obviously always going to be that saturation, New York, Chicago, LA, you know, San Francisco, you know, 10, 15 years ago that it was not, you know, there was like one restaurant each, you know, in each state or town that might be sort of thought of that realm and now there's way more.

[00:13:05] 

And it's, it's funny. It's not just, you know, the culinary thing that pushes people back. I'm sure people have moved to Colorado because of. Just a different quality of life and yeah, you know, having kids and they've been cooking for a while and now, you know, just more opportunity there. Speaking of kids though, like first of all, congrats on how is it going being a mom and owning a restaurant?

[00:13:27]

And I know for me, it changed so much of how I think about. My team and how I lead and how I think about my time and how I think about prioritizing everything that I do, but I'd love to hear a year in, you know, how's it going? 

[00:13:39] Caroline Glover: 

Yeah. I mean, it's been like so many different stages, right? Like a year is wild, like to have a baby that can like literally not hold up their head.

[00:13:48] 

And then a year later they're walking, like it's every week, it's something different. I mean, it's definitely been the hardest thing I've ever done. I thought, I honestly thought to myself, I was like, well, I've opened a restaurant. No big deal. I can have a kid, you know, like I went through IVF for two years, like getting shots in my ass on the line.

[00:14:06] 

Like I, I got this, like I can totally do it, but it rocked my world. Like it not having control. That was a really big thing for me because that's part of the restaurant, right? Like for the most part, you know, in control of a lot of situations and having to relinquish, you know, A lot. That was really hard for me.

[00:14:26] 

I mean, our first two years open, I worked every single day on the line and we closed one day because I got sick. Like, I mean, we've come a long way from that, but I'm a control freak. And so that was, it was really hard, but it also has made me realize that the restaurant's not everything. It's really easy to be in this industry and be all in and it just dictates every single facet of your life.

[00:14:53] 

And honestly, bringing a kid in has made me realize there's bigger things. There's other things outside of the restaurant. And I think that ultimately makes me a little bit softer at the restaurant, but that's not a bad thing. You know, like, it makes me ask people, how are they? How's your kid? How's your family?

[00:15:10] 

You know, just things that I've just never, I'm like one of those people, you get to work, you put your head down, you do the work and you go home. And so I do think it's made me Just a more rounded person. I think like we have a tendency to not be rounded people in this industry, but yeah, I mean, it's tough, like not sleeping and then having to go in and run the kitchen and nobody gives a shit.

[00:15:32] 

Right? Like they don't care if you're tired. I can't even put sentences together.

[00:15:38] Josh Sharkey: 

It's also, anybody that doesn't have a kid wouldn't know this, it is so much harder for the mom as well because of, one, it's not just, you know, the time, we lose a lot of time, right? And a lot of control over our time, but the body, right? There's like, you kind of give up like, you know, the control over your body and all the things that come along with that.

[00:16:00] 

And it takes a long time to recover from that. I'm continually amazed. My wife, you know, was like, She's an event designer, she does floral events and things like the week before she gave birth was doing this big event week after. I'm like, what is crazy? Like, how are you doing this? It is pretty amazing, you know, what the sort of struggle that has to happen to sort of do that and have a business.

[00:16:24] 

Totally. It's just like a whole nother part of your brain. Like literally half of it gets taken away, you know, to like, cause I was breastfeeding, I was pumping, you know, I'd be prepping. And then all of a sudden it was like, Oh my God, I got to run to the office and pump really quickly. Like it was just a whirlwind.

[00:16:41] 

And then I had pretty bad postpartum depression as well and got on medication. But that was a whole nother facet of it that not only are you running a business. And trying to like act like you are just like you bounce back, you know, a couple of weeks later and then like, you know, dealing with like pretty heavy depression slash mourning a life that's gone, you know, like this is that was all I had known was running restaurants with my husband and then.

[00:17:11] 

That whole identity kind of got taken away for a bit and I feel like it's slowly been coming back a year later But it looks different. It feels different. It's just pretty it's a wild ride 

[00:17:21] Josh Sharkey: 

How has that impacted the relationship with I don't know if you work with your husband or if it's if I think you guys work together right?

[00:17:28] 

Yeah, I mean I know for my wife there's like There's no way around a little bit of resentment because there's just more on one than the other. How have you handled that? And I, yeah, you know, the other piece of it that, and that was, that's what I was mentioning about the body is like, yeah, there's this flood of hormones that just comes in.

[00:17:42] 

There's nothing you can do about it. How has that been for you? 

[00:17:46] Caroline Glover: 

I mean, I highly recommend couples therapy. That's like, that's something that we started six months, probably postpartum, because we started going, both started going back to work, but I just felt, yeah, I felt resentful because it wasn't like, he just got to go back to work, you know, and he got to, you know, be on the floor and talking to guests and doing his thing and loving it, you know, like, cause he got to get out of the house and into this.

[00:18:12] 

And I felt like. Even though I was doing that, I still like had so many other responsibilities like pumping or going and feeding her or, you know, it wasn't like I just got to jump back in. And so I had a lot of resentment and it like it definitely came to a head. Where I was like, I hate you. I just, I don't, and I don't think I hate you, but I really feel like I hate you right now.

[00:18:37] 

And so therapy was really important. And three months postpartum, we, we opened a bar two months ago. 

[00:18:45] 

three months postpartum, we started planning this bar and. It was just a lot. And I just felt, you know, on top of doing the bar and Annette and the baby, it just all exploded. And I just, and then my head guy left right when we opened the bar in the kitchen.

[00:19:03] 

And so it was just like, I felt like everything came crashing down. And so it was really important for us to talk to a third party. Yeah. To really kind of sort out how I was feeling and describe it to my husband. And that was really important. 

[00:19:16] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And even we've had a couple of therapists for quite a while.

[00:19:21] 

Even when things are going well, it's still important. I think just even if there's something in the cadence for it, because you can just talk things out that way. 

[00:19:27] Caroline Glover: 

He allowed us to have an hour with just the two of us, which we realized we weren't getting it all. You know, like, yeah, you're just forced to schedule that time.

[00:19:36] 

Forced and like, would drag our feet and be like, Oh, we don't have time for this. And then after an hour, we're like, that's so cool to talk to you. Like, that was cool. 

[00:19:45] Josh Sharkey: 

I'm so glad to hear you say that because it's the same. We like, we start this session. We're like, Oh fuck, I'm tired. I don't know how to do this.

[00:19:51] 

And then you're like, good. I'm glad we actually, you know, got that out of the way. Cause we would never have just scheduled. Hey, let's just schedule an hour to talk like that. It doesn't happen.

[00:19:59] Caroline Glover: 

No, it doesn't. And it is like, you don't realize how important it is until you do it. And even, you know how good it is, the next session, we still drag our feet and, you know, we're just like, uh, I don't want to do this.

[00:20:08] 

And then you get to end it and being like, hey, I like you. Like, you're a cool person, which is important. 

[00:20:13] Josh Sharkey: 

Deeper understanding. You know, it's interesting though, you were saying something before that, I think about it a lot too, about the, you know, the first two decades of my career. I just, everything was work, just 100 hours a week, you know, I would work on my days off, I'd go stage, I would come in early and, you know, learn how to butcher, and I would always be like, everything was just about that for so long.

[00:20:32] 

And then all of a sudden, you know, I didn't have my first kids, I was 38. You know, I started thinking like, like, Oh wow, there's another part of our lives outside of work. And I think, you know, there's like, at first there's this fear of like, okay, got it. Now I'm just not going to be as much into a career because I have something else.

[00:20:51] 

But I think it actually makes us better. I think it makes us better creatives, better leaders, because without that perspective, you don't have like the, you don't have any sort of vantage other than this sort of. Like myopic view of what you've been doing your whole life. Totally. Then you start having a child, then you start having a family, whatever the thing is, even if it's just like other hobbies or other things that you love, that impacts your creativity, that impacts, I don't know if you feel the same.

[00:21:18] Caroline Glover: 

Yeah, I think it made, it was like a, it did, I didn't realize that I had skipped out on so many things like birthdays, weddings, blah, blah, blah, you know, going out on a Friday night or whatever because of work. And it made me realize that I've always used work as an excuse, you know, even if I like, Didn't necessarily need to be at work that night.

[00:21:42] 

I'm like, well, I'm going to be here because and that was a really hard thing for me because it's made me how, like, I don't know. I don't want to like, make it seem like we're like lagoon creatures or something, but I feel that way, you know, like learning how to engage with people outside of the restaurant has been a really hard thing for me to like, focus and listen about something that's not about food or, you know, Somebody's not asking me a question.

[00:22:05] 

And so I feel like that was part of the postpartum depression where I was just like, I don't fit in outside this world. Like, I don't want to go out on a Friday night. I don't want to go over somebody's house and pretend that I care about, you know, whatever's happening in the world. And then it's, it's a muscle that you have to use.

[00:22:22] 

And I felt like I started, once I started exercising it, I was like, Oh, this is cool. Like there, there's other things going on outside of my restaurant or outside of this. Spear of food that I'm constantly comparing myself to this person or wanting to be better than this person or whatever. And I think like, I'm just getting to a point now where I feel not guilty.

[00:22:45] 

Because like we went to dinner on a Saturday night with some friends and I was like, this is crazy. Like we should be at the restaurant, but then it, it does. It makes you just open your eyes and you can see things and you can enjoy different experiences. And I think that brings, it comes back to the restaurant too.

[00:23:01] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah, 100%. I always think about comics, the only way they continue to be funny is to continue to experience more life. Like they're telling the same story over and over again, it's just not, it's not going to be funny anymore. And I think it's similar with any craft, or any art, right? Like you, you have to have more new perspectives. Otherwise, it's Nothing really changes, you know, 

[00:23:21] Caroline Glover: 

Exactly. Yeah. I totally agree with that. 

[00:23:23] Josh Sharkey: 

I still don't like going on a Friday night, but that's, 

[00:23:28] 

So we're long past COVID, but I was talking to my buddy, Andrew Friedman, and I realized he had done a, an interview with you right around, I think it was right in the heart of when it was all, it was, yeah, I was like crying, you know, we're past it, but it was a wake up call for a lot of us of like, oh, wow, we got, we have a pretty like fickle, you know, business model and it, you know, one, Well, you know, one string can break a lot of things.

[00:23:51] 

Did COVID change the way that you think about how you operate the business or ways of being more durable as a business? 

[00:23:57] Caroline Glover: 

Yeah, I mean, I think it definitely did. You know, God, I feel like there's so many iterations of the restaurant that occurred during COVID. And I think if anything, It's just taught me that I don't know if this business model is sustainable forever.

[00:24:14] 

I don't know what the future of the, you know, yes, it made us resilient. Yes, it made, it made some of my key employees now, you know, people that stuck around and were like, yeah, I'll run food out, um, in the parking lot with you in the snow. Um, and now one of them, we opened a bar for him, you know, and that's like four years later.

[00:24:33] 

And He did the damn thing with us and earned to have his own spot. But I think it also has made me kind of like really step back and look at the model of our restaurant and how many people it takes to run and how it's so dependent on firing on all cylinders every single night just to make a profit.

[00:24:51] 

And I feel like I'm still kind of like, Dealing with a backlash of that, if that makes sense, you know, just kind of really looking at what are we doing? What does it take to do it? And does it feel sustainable for the long term? I think like that year of COVID or two years of COVID just aged me and the restaurant, you know, faster and put us through, you know, some really tough stuff that has made me just not sure that this style of restaurant is going to be around forever.

[00:25:21] 

Or if it's like what I want to do. So that's like a very heavy takeaway from it, but you know, it just made us really stop and look and think about what's the future of this style of restaurant. 

[00:25:33] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. I mean, like the unit economics of a, of a restaurant business. just are not great and the margin of error is really low.

[00:25:40] 

So I was talking to a buddy of mine, this guy, Dave Santos. He has a restaurant in New York, an amazing restaurant called Fox Face, by the way. And you know, there was this review, I won't name the writer, but it said they were talking about how it was the prawn dish was too expensive. I wanted to talk to you about this just because, well, we don't know each other, so let's just talk about something, you know, industry related.

[00:25:58] 

I get really annoyed when I hear sort of the, you know, this thing is too expensive. And because when I think about, like, what you actually pay for at a restaurant, people, I think, often are You know, in their minds are like, wait a second, shrimp costs $8 a pound. So why am I paying this? And it's like, yeah, how much would a butler and a maid and a cleaner, you know, and you know, a server at your house, how much would all that cost?

[00:26:22] 

And how much would it cost for someone to come in and design that room for the day? So it feels really nice because I think. We pay for so much more than just, you know, when you go to a restaurant, you're paying for an experience. The food is a piece of it. I think that if the perception of what food should cost doesn't change, then to your point, it's a tough model to ever be evergreen, unless you start to, I mean, there are things you could do, obviously.

[00:26:45] 

And of course, top line volume cures most things. I'm curious how you think about that and just the perception of what food costs and how. 

[00:26:52] Caroline Glover: 

Yeah, well, and I think like, I think, you know, going back to how food is. How we source it now, you know, the fact that somebody sees a shrimp at the grocery store, that's $8 a pound.

[00:27:05]

That's from Indonesia or Mexico. You know, we have a shrimp at our bar that's $26 a pound. And it's because it's domestic. And, you know, this guy in Florida goes out every morning and gets, you know, like, and they're like, Oh, why is this so delicious and expensive? And I'm like, well, those two kind of go hand in hand.

[00:27:24] 

It's a far superior product than what you can buy at the grocery store. But you are going to pay more for it and I think also people are getting really price sensitive right now, you know, like it's just prices have just been going up across the board grocery store everything, you know, and I think it's easy to take it out on restaurants because there are people there, right?

[00:27:44] 

Like that. You can say, Hey, you're in charge of this. Cost and I'm not happy about paying this. You go to the grocery store. Like, it's not like you get to complain to the, you know, the checkout person you can, but it doesn't matter. But I think like that in conjunction with we've added a service charge too for the 1st time.

[00:28:02] 

And it's because, like, The living wage, you know what it costs to live in Denver. It's extremely high and we need to pay people a living wage. And that's really made people angry. Just like, oh my God, now there's this extra fee. I, and a lot of people say, I'd rather you just put it into the price of the food.

[00:28:20] 

I'm like, no, you don't. Yeah. Like you're gonna be unhappy either way, right? Yeah. Like I, yeah, sure. You want me to charge you $50 for a chicken? If we could do that. Or there is this like 5%, um, service fee that we have to use to help pay our employees. So I just feel like it's always gonna be a battle, but right now it feels like a way bigger battle than usual.

[00:28:42] 

Um, and I think it's just 'cause people are tired of prices going up and I get it. Me too. But that's just, it's the way it is. Yeah. You know? Yeah. 

[00:28:53] Josh Sharkey: 

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[00:30:02] 

I think it just requires a lot more storytelling around what, you know, what's happening too. I mean, think about this, like, you go to a spa without any of the services of a massage or whatever, it's a hundred bucks, like, just to go there. There's nobody waiting on you, you know. There's like a, there's one person that will clean the entire, you know, room, but there's, you know.

[00:30:19] 

There's fixed costs of like heating the water and the lights and things like that, but that's, you know, anywhere, but it's a hundred bucks just to experience that thing. Totally. And you go to a restaurant, you sit down and you have three people bringing you food. You have another person that's gonna like, that's just professionally trained to talk to you about the beverages that you're going to have.

[00:30:37] 

You have a number of very highly trained folks that are like designing a menu and more that are like cooking that menu. You have people cleaning the thing you have, and then, you know, there's so much involved. And so. Maybe part of what you need to have is a bit more storytelling around all the things that actually go into this.

[00:30:54] 

Outside of just like sitting down and getting a plate of food that's brought to you. 

[00:30:57] Caroline Glover: 

Yeah, I think the best experience you can 

have in a restaurant is It's the one where you don't notice all that stuff, right? Like you don't notice all the people bustling around or when your plate was cleared and you got reset, you know, like that's the best experience is when it's seamless and it doesn't interfere.

[00:31:14] 

And I think people take that for granted too, you know, cause they're just like, they don't see it. They don't see it all. And that's like, because we worked really hard for you not to see it, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a lot going on behind the scenes. 

[00:31:26] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. Yeah. Usually more when you don't notice it as much.

So, so now you have two places. And you have a kid. Yeah. It's harder to maintain the consistency of your food. Yeah. Totally. Right. What do you, like, what are some things that you do to, or the other things that you've added on to your process to help do that, or is it just the people involved? Like, how do you maintain consistency now that you're starting to scale?

[00:31:47] Caroline Glover: 

Yeah. Well, I mean, I finally wrote recipes down. My God, took me six years to get there. That was, that was part of the problem. Everything was in my head, but you know, I have always retained people in the kitchen, you know, I said, my, my main guy left. Well, he's like moving into my basement tomorrow, four months later, he's ready to come back, but we've always tipped out our, everybody makes the same amount of money in our restaurants or our kitchen makes the same as our servers, as our dishwashers, as our host.

[00:32:15] 

So we have been fortunate to retain a lot of people in the kitchen. So the people, the person who is like really in charge right now, she's been with me for four years. And so I think the main thing is it's open communication. I think sometimes people are afraid to ask questions or don't want to reach out to the chef because they should know how to do something, whatever.

[00:32:37] 

I have the exact opposite philosophy. I'm like, reach out, call me, whatever. If you have any questions, I think that's been a really big part. And, you know, so I get a lot more phone calls or when I go in, I just taste every single thing that's in the walk in. It's a small walk in and it's easy to do that.

[00:32:55] 

So I think it's just like trying to use that time a bit more often, you know, like it's everything is very condensed now. So it's like you walk in, you're like, I'm going to taste this and this, everything's good. We also have an insane regular base, people that come to the restaurant every single week and I have good relationships with them.

[00:33:12] 

And I love it when they're like, Hey, This tastes a little bit different this time. And I'm like, Perd, yeah, let me go in there. Let me try. Let me see how they're picking it up. And that's been huge. Or my management, you know, my front of the house managers eat a meal every night. And they let me know if things taste a little bit different or need to be tweaked.

[00:33:29] 

And I think just like having that communication with your staff, I think sometimes some chefs have a tendency to not want to hear negative feedback because it sucks and it's so personal. But I think like really encouraging your staff to give you that type of feedback is really important. 

[00:33:46] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. I 100 percent agree. Whether it's creating a new dish or hearing that feedback on your current menu or other food. Frameworks or things that you do to synthesize all the feedback that you get, or is it more ad hoc just as it comes in? 

[00:33:57] Caroline Glover: 

I think it's usually more ad hoc. We do manager meetings once a week, and a really big important part of those since I haven't been on the line every single night is sitting down and talking through the dishes and, you know, I have my front of house managers who love telling me every little detail of like who plates what and how and you know, I think some people could find that annoying, but I appreciate it.

[00:34:20] 

And I also make sure to be there for the first hour of service every night. So I can see all the first of every dishes going out, taste everything. And then we have like, We have everybody preps everything for their station. I have a lot of sauces, honestly, and I've learned like with the bar as well. The bar is like very tiny but has a really beautiful food menu.

[00:34:41] 

If if you season the sauces just right, it doesn't need a lot of tweaking throughout service and you know. That's been a really big important thing to me because I feel like, you know, a lot of times I go to restaurants and you see cooks not tasting everything that is insane to me. So it's a lot of tasting and then whoever's running, whoever's the sous for that night has to taste every single dish that goes out and it's, it's crazy.

[00:35:05] 

Like when people come and work for me for the first time, and I'm like, Hey, did somebody taste that? They're like, well, I've made it 10 times. So, and I'm like, no, no, like every single time it gets tasted. And I think that is kind of an old school thing that people aren't quite used to, like this younger generation, but how many restaurants have you, 

[00:35:23] Josh Sharkey: 

I didn't, I didn't know that, but yeah, like how could you not taste everything?

[00:35:25] Caroline Glover: 

And yeah, and I, it's interesting when they come from kitchens that, you know, I respect and I'm like, the chef didn't taste everything and they're like, no, like once you got it and I'm like, that's not, no, that's not a thing, but I feel like you can go to restaurants and you can tell what kitchens taste their food and which ones don't.

[00:35:41] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and just things change throughout, even throughout service. If you have a sauce, it starts to sit and you know, you have to refresh it, you know, it's probably getting, the viscosity is changing. 

Totally. 

[00:35:51] Caroline Glover: 

Totally. And just working with different products, right? Like in season versus out of season or whatever.

[00:35:56] 

Like, that's a big thing. Like with tomato season, it's like, well, some, sometimes the tomatoes are more acidic, some days they're more sweet. You have to adjust based on that. So I think it's just a lot of training palettes and training them to be mine. Right. Because everybody has a different palette. So it takes a long time to, that was something April taught me and probably a lot of chefs in New York, like.

[00:36:18] 

This is what I want it to taste like. And you will eventually get that it'll take a minute. 

[00:36:25] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah, that's also what's, you know, a lot of fun about cooking is that, you know, things change, the Bricks level of a pear changes. So if you ever go start uh, with a pear, it probably will be different depending on the year.

[00:36:37] 

I was, we were just talking about this yesterday with Michael Mina, who's on the show, and like their whole process of R&D and they're maniacal about recipes. But, you know, the recipe is just a piece of it. Totally. Things change. 

[00:36:48] Caroline Glover: 

It's justhalf of it. Yeah. And I think that, that is a hard thing for younger cooks to sometimes realize.

[00:36:53] 

Like, I'm like, well, what did you do here? And like, I followed the recipe. Great. Thank you. There's still something that's off. So it's just, you know, it's, yeah, it's a learning process. 

[00:37:02] Josh Sharkey: 

I'm a huge believer in recipes, obviously, it's my company now. Yeah. And there's a lot of reasons why for just of the restaurants that I've been out of the years and running the restaurants.

[00:37:10] 

But for me, you know, it's incumbent upon us. When we create recipes, it's not just a list of ingredients. It's not just a list of ingredients with quantities. It's not just a list of ingredients with quantities and like the steps to do the thing, but it's also like nothing is implicit. You know, it should be explicit, like do this, but taste the pear.

[00:37:29] 

If it's, you know, if the sweetness isn't this, then you need to adjust. And because there's, you know, you have to have a base of a recipe. You want to know there's 20 grams of this, 40 grams of this, because otherwise it's just chaos. But then you have to explain, hey, you know what? Like russet potatoes, once they hit September.

[00:37:45] 

They're going to change a bit. So, you know, and that's, I think that's part of the recipe. And I think we, we often think that's just, especially now is there's more folks that are coming in that are green and might not be there forever. The more explicit you can be, the better. It would take them 15 years to learn everything that's in your brain of how you want that thing.

[00:38:03] 

But the more explicit you can be. You know, 

[00:38:05] Caroline Glover: 

Yeah, yeah, I think that's huge. I think like I used to be a very silent, you know, I, I didn't like talk a lot in the kitchen and just wanted to work. And I think that's another thing that's come with motherhood is talking through everything to until I'm blue in the face of like, this is how much time I have here.

[00:38:23] 

So I'm going to try to tell you everything that I possibly can about this dish or why we do it this way. And I think that the younger green man. crew, there's like, it's like split in the middle. There's half of them that are like writing it down super into it. And then the other half that I'm like, did you, did you hear anything I just said?

[00:38:41] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. I don't know if you feel this way. I like, And I don't know if it's just an out of the ordinary expectation, but, you know, as a leader, I'm like, if I come and show you something and tell you something, I expect that, like, I've told you once, I'm not going to have to tell you again, because somehow you've, you've documented it.

[00:38:58] 

You wrote it down. You took a note. Maybe you have a really good memory. You can write it down later. But like, it's, you know, the time here is the time and I'm showing this to you now so that you'd understand it. And if you don't understand it, you'll continue to ask. Yeah. I'm curious. And I don't know if it, if necessarily, yes, it's like.

[00:39:14] 

In terms of the difference between now and the difference between, well, the difference between now and when before you had your kid, but how do you approach when a cook makes a mistake with the food that you're making? 

[00:39:27] Caroline Glover: 

You know, when we were in the opening of Anette, you know, the first three years I was an asshole, you know, felt, you know, it's burnt out.

[00:39:35] 

I was worked to the bone and you're seeing every single dollar sign and, and I was harsh, you know? Like it was. harsh feedback and just getting pretty pissed and, you know, not like throwing things or anything, but visibly pretty upset. And I feel like now things are not, it's not like a little chick in the sky is falling for me now.

[00:39:55] 

And I think that a lot of that does come from having a child and realizing that if somebody messes up something, my main thing is don't lie. And don't serve something that you are not proud of. And that's really when I get upset, you know, I feel like I am way more approachable now. So when people do have an issue or something doesn't, isn't right, they're not scared to come to me.

[00:40:19] 

I think that in the first beginning years, I realized that people were starting to not want to come to me to find a solution or to say like, Hey, this got messed up and we're trying to sneak it past me. And. Now that I feel way more approachable, my whole thing is like, I really don't get mad until you lie, and that's a really big thing to me.

[00:40:41] 

Don't lie, don't try to sneak anything past me, and if you're not proud of what you just cooked, do not serve it. And I think that's like way more of my Approach to management now versus what it used to be of just kind of like people being scared, you know, and being scared to me meant that they were going to do their best.

[00:41:02] 

And that's not how that works. Yeah. 

[00:41:05] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. It's so interesting because it's how we, it's how it existed for so long. And you know, a pattern that I'm seeing, I started this podcast a couple of years ago, just for fun. The first one was with Wiley. And that's why we started doing more of them. And the same thing that we were, that he and I were talking about.

[00:41:21] 

I've seen as a pattern in so many kitchens where there's very clearly this, you know, creative, innovative, you know, thing happening, that the common thread is creating this culture of kindness and a lack of fear. Because what's funny is, you know, when you're in the weeds, Oftentimes you're more scared that the chef is going to be upset with you than the fear that the customer is not going to be happy.

[00:41:47] 

So you start putting things up because you're like, Oh, I don't want to tell the chef about this because, you know, they're going to be upset. So I just sort of rush it out. But if that fear is gone, if you're like, there's an openness here and it's okay to be, it's okay for this to not be okay. to be good, but I need to, you know, if I have this sort of form, this environment where I can actually, you know, like say it to the chef and they're not going to be upset with me, that actually unlocks so much more for the ability for the team to actually execute well, because you remove that fear of the chef just being upset with you.

[00:42:17] 

And totally, it's our fault anyways, right? If they're not executing our food well. It's on everything falls on us. 

[00:42:22] Caroline Glover: 

Yeah, totally. And I think like that in itself is like a hard evolution to go through because there were moments where I felt like, am I getting really soft? And now nobody, you know, everybody feels comfortable.

[00:42:35] 

And, you know, and, and then I'm like, well, what kind of kitchen are you creating now? And then, you know, then you have a really hard service and you may be yeah. Not like get mad, but calm down a little bit and see everybody really tighten up or I think then it's like one of those moments like it's like, no, this is good like this.

[00:42:53] 

They feel comfortable in their environment, but when push comes to shove. They do care and you do see a side of that, but it is, I think I've, I had a lot of issues of like, Oh my God, am I soft? And now I have this like easy kitchen and it's like, okay, well, what's wrong with an easy kitchen? Is it easy? You know, like this crazy mind.

[00:43:11] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. And the fear then just like, then just sort of gets shifted to you and it doesn't ever really go away. Then you're like, Am I giving up control and now things are all gonna go to shit or am I giving up control and Actually people are gonna surprise me and start executing even better and it's just so scary because you don't know and it's not like one Day, you're like, oh, yeah now it works.

[00:43:30] 

So we're cool. No, you know, it's like this kind of 

[00:43:33] Caroline Glover: 

It's constant and it is such a seesaw because you will get people who will take advantage of you and You know, I'll be like, Oh, this is a like super chill kitchen. I'm going to watch football on my phone or whatever, you know, like there's different types of people.

[00:43:46] 

But I think ultimately a lot of us are learning that working in fear is not, it doesn't create the best product. 

[00:43:55] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. And I mean, I can just hear from talking to you, like how much it seems like you've evolved, like striking that balance between a level of understanding. And a level of healthy pressure is just really hard.

[00:44:08] Caroline Glover: 

It's a hard balance. And I had my sous chef, Chelsea, she opened the restaurant with me and we ran a two woman line for the first like three months and also with the dishwashers. And so we were just like in it together. And she took a lot of the brunt of like my, my. you know, lashing out or getting mad about certain things.

[00:44:26] 

And she's now open to her own sausage company. And she came to do a pop up with a bar a couple of weeks ago, and she was in the kitchen and something happened. And she kind of looked at me to see, you know, how I was going to react. And, you know, I went and got them off and was like, all right, cool. Like, let's run back to the walk in, grab this.

[00:44:43] 

And she looked at them and she was just like, Are you kidding me? Like, this is what you're like in 

[00:44:48] 

the kitchen now? No! I'm like, yes.

[00:44:50] 

He's like, why didn't I get this? 

[00:44:54] Josh Sharkey: 

Well, speaking of women in the kitchen, from afar, from what I'm, from what I've seen, it looks like you're obviously a huge supporter of women. You try your best to hire as many women as possible.

[00:45:02] 

One thing I read a couple times, which I wanted to double click on, which you said that you also appreciate that like women have a slightly different palate or maybe just a palate that is more of your preference. Can you, what does that mean? Yeah, 

[00:45:14] 

I think maybe that's a really nice way to put it because I think like sometimes I feel like I'm digging myself in a hole and I'm not trying to say that like women are different.

[00:45:21] 

better or it's just different. And I think that they pick up on my palate faster, you know, and it doesn't take quite as much coaching because again, like, it's so funny, right? That we like put out food and it's so personal just because somebody may not like the way that I seasoned something. I love it.

[00:45:42] 

They don't, you know, like, I always think about that when we're serving food. I'm like, this is crazy that I'm literally just putting things on a plate that I like, and I'm hoping that other people like. I do think that women pick up on my palate faster and sometimes it's like maybe more like subtle like changes in a certain dish that I feel like just sometimes feels like it has a woman's touch.

[00:46:04] 

I don't know how to describe that, but then in the same breath, you know, my right hand person, Jake, he ran my kitchen for the first time ever whenever I gave birth. And I think did almost a better job than me with certain dishes and certain, you know, flavor profiles. So I think it does come down to the person, but I have appreciated working with women in the kitchen a lot.

[00:46:26] Josh Sharkey: 

What do you think is still the biggest obstacle for, I mean, cause there's a lot of them, obviously, for women in the hospitality industry, maybe in industry in general, but we could stick to hospitality, if. Yeah. 

[00:46:38] Caroline Glover: 

I mean, I think, I mean, honestly, this has been a really weird thing since the pandemic, ever since the pandemic, I used to have women apply and droves for an ad, you know, like I got way more women applicants for the kitchen than men.

[00:46:49] 

And ever since COVID, I get maybe one woman for every 10 to 15 guys that apply. And I don't know what's up with that. I don't know if maybe the pandemic made people realize like, Oh, I want to start a life and in order to start a life outside, I can't work in the kitchen. I think like I've had a few women chef reach out to me who are kind of on the fence of like, Can I have a kid?

[00:47:12] 

How do I have a kid? How do you do this? And I think that's one of the biggest things in order to start a family. This industry is just not conducive to it. Like, I don't know how I would have had a kid without owning my own spot. And that's, and I, I think that a lot of people do it. And, but I think for me personally, I just didn't know, you know, like we're all trying to climb up the chain.

[00:47:32] 

Right. And then as soon as you have to be taken out, To give birth. And then you kind of lose your place and people think differently of you and you have different priorities. You are overlooked. And so I just think, I think that makes it really hard for women. If you have any inclination that you want to start a family, I think it's easy to be like, this is not the industry for me.

[00:47:54] 

This isn't going to work. And that sucks. And I also don't know how to make it. You know, I don't have any cooks that have kids. And I think that a lot of my cooks don't want to have kids and, and maybe that's why they chose this profession. But I think that it's really hard to start a family. And when you are the person not usually carrying a child and giving birth to the child, it just doesn't, it's just, it's a difficult profession to be in.

[00:48:21] Josh Sharkey: 

It really is. You know, it's like a dumb question to ask people, like, Hey, what's the Like restaurants you start working in, you know, in the morning and service just run five and then going till like nighttime So who's putting the kids to bed? Who's picking up from school? Who's yeah, you know when it's early days like who's there just all the time It just doesn't it's a tough one because it's you know, like what are we supposed to say?

[00:48:45] 

Like, oh, yeah parenting and Being in the restaurant business don't align. it kind of sucks. 

[00:48:50] Caroline Glover: 

Yeah, it does suck. And I think also it's such a physical job, right? Like that aspect is never going to go away with restaurants. We can change so many things, right? We can make the pay better. We can make the conditions better, but at the end of the day, it's a physical job and there's just no way around that.

[00:49:06] 

And when I was at The Spotted Pig, I worked with two pregnant pregnant women, and one of them was a sous chef. And I remember she was like a week away from giving birth and we were upstairs and she had just worked a 12 hour day. Everything was swollen on her body, you know, just, and she was sitting and just crying so hard and I'm like, what's wrong?

[00:49:23] 

And she was like, I'm weak now. I'm weak. Like you guys have to help me carry things at three flights upstairs. And I was just like, what? Like, you're not weak at all. You're the strongest person. But I understand too now being in that same position where I'm like, can you guys lift this for me? It's like, I'll go into labor if I left it.

[00:49:42] 

It's the toll that it takes on our bodies in conjunction with working and the conditions, whether they're great or not great, it just doesn't, it doesn't align. 

[00:49:52] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. The only real solve is that there's redundancy of people, but that's too expensive. 

[00:49:58] Caroline Glover: 

That's the thing, right? Like, yeah, it's like, get a, get a staff that can do it for you.

[00:50:02] 

Absolutely. But that costs money. And that's been the biggest thing is like our labor. Cogs used to be 37%. And now that I'm not as involved, we're at, we're hovering at like 49%. And it's like, okay, whoa, this is like, this is crazy labor and just labor. 

[00:50:20] Josh Sharkey: 

Oh, wow. 

[00:50:21] Caroline Glover: 

Just labor is like hovering at 49 percent with my husband and I not working 80 hours a week.

[00:50:28] 

Now we work 60 hours a week and we pay for 40 hours of, you know, a nanny. Like our costs have gone up exponentially and then in both places and for our personal life and for professional. 

[00:50:42] Josh Sharkey: 

I mean, just for, I mean, I think there's only really chefs and restaurant folks listening to this, but just if there are diners, you know, putting that into perspective, you sit down, you have a 40 entree.

[00:50:51] 

That means 20 went towards the labor of that entree. And then another, like, at least, you know, whatever, like 20%, you know, five, probably 30 percent went to the food, you know, so you're talking about another $12, so like now that's 32 bucks and you got 10 percent going towards rent, so now you're like 36 bucks, then you have OPEX of utilities and that, so that 40 dish that seemed so expensive.

[00:51:16] Josh Sharkey: 

You're making like a dollar on it if you're lucky. Totally. 

[00:51:18] Caroline Glover: 

If you're lucky. Yeah. I mean, I think that, that has honestly like kind of why we've been thinking about different business models just because we're like, Oh my God, we didn't realize us putting in 80 hours a week was what was making our cogs, you know, our labor costs, um, sustainable ish, not for us like as people, but for the restaurant.

[00:51:42] 

So that's been like a really interesting thing for us to kind of see. Stepping away in the capacity that we have, which is still working at least 50, 60 hours a week is, um, hurt the bottom line for sure. 

[00:51:54] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. Yeah. The only real solve there is that $40 dish actually cost $70. 

[00:51:59] Caroline Glover: 

That's right. That's exactly right.

[00:52:03] Josh Sharkey: 

All right. So moving on and you know, we've got a couple more things we can talk about and we'll, and we'll wrap up here. I'm sure you're busy. I've been asking this a lot lately. What makes you really angry? Like what makes your blood boil? 

[00:52:12] Caroline Glover: 

Oh, I'm trying to think of something that happened yesterday because I remember coming home and just being like, you know, I think it's people not when they're at work, not being at work a hundred percent, honestly, you know, because I feel like we have four day work weeks for all of our employees or tens and they have three days off.

[00:52:31] 

And for me, it's almost like a respect thing. When you're here, I need you to be here. And when you're not here, you're not here. I don't contact you on your day off. I don't ask anything of you on your day off. And so I asked for the same respect back. And honestly, I think it's happened since having a kid too, because realizing like how important.

[00:52:54] 

It is for me to be at the restaurant and be there a hundred percent as best I can. I want people to do the same to me. And maybe that's like old school. Maybe that makes me like a restaurant boomer. I don't know. But I think that with cell phones and people having like, you know, Social media and all that kind of stuff, like it's really easy to like go to the bathroom and check your phone or be walking to the walk in and you're scrolling and like that shit just drives me nuts.

[00:53:21] 

And I think that is like an old, like something that maybe isn't something that people care about as much anymore, but I really do care about that a lot and it really does chop my ass if you get to work and decide to scroll on Instagram on the line if we're slow, you know. 

[00:53:35] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah, that would drive me nuts too. It's funny, um, Chef Bouley passed this week. I worked for him a couple decades ago and I remember right after we lost the fourth star, he gave this speech, you know, it didn't really necessarily like the cooks, although maybe nowadays it would, but obviously a lot of the front of house. And basically what he said was, look, a lot of you are here because you want to be musicians or artists or you're going to law school or you're going to, you know, whatever the thing is that you're doing now, maybe you want to be an influencer or whatever the thing is.

[00:54:03] 

And you might not want to be here because you want to. Be a, you know, three star Michelin chef or something like that. But if you can give a hundred percent here doing this, just imagine what you can do with the thing that you actually love to do. It's funny how that has stuck with me like 20 years later, I still tell my staff about it.

[00:54:21] 

Because, yeah, this is, you know, what you do, and the amount of, like, time and energy and thought and work that goes into what you're building. It really only works that everybody also aligns there and also gives that because yeah, one, it clearly it's not, it doesn't feel fair, right? Like you're like, Hey, while you're here, especially I'm giving you a four day work week.

Like, yeah, let's give it our all. 

[00:54:42] Caroline Glover: 

And I think like, you know, being working in New York and working for Top Chefs, you, I'm sure you heard from them on your days off or, you know, maybe before your shift or whatever. And I feel like that's a really important thing to me. To not do. And if I do reach out to somebody on their day off, then it's like, it's pretty urgent, you know, it's not just me, just.

[00:55:04] 

Making them do something that they don't want to do or whatever. But I think recognizing that if I give that respect, I want that respect back as well. 

[00:55:12] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. Well, when you're not at the restaurant and you're not being a mom and a wife and a dog owner, is there anything else you're doing for fun outside of all of that?

[00:55:24] Caroline Glover: 

You know, I mean, yes and no. I think I'm at this point where I really want to find something that excites me outside of motherhood and work because it feels like the two can feel like a slog if you don't have something else. I've always loved exercising. That's a really important thing to me, running, yoga, Pilates, but I'm starting to realize that like, I need to find something else and, you know, I live in Colorado and I don't hike and I don't get out and that's like part of the reason a lot of people live here, but.

[00:55:58] 

Besides gardening. No, I feel like I have to give garden. I do. Yeah. Yeah. And last year was the first time I didn't garden. And that is when I got on Zoloft because I realized like, I'm not like if this thing that used to bring me joy is like, absolute, like, I can't even think about it. Something's wrong.

[00:56:18] 

And, and that was a really important thing because my husband was like, Whoa, like, yeah. You're not gardening. What's going on? And I was like, I don't know. I hate life. I hate everything. He was like, okay, but I think like I do find things like that really enjoyable, but I sent my husband a text yesterday. I walked, our walk in is outside.

[00:56:38] 

It is ridiculous how we have to go get food, but I was walking out to the walk in and the sun was setting and I took a deep breath and I was like, Oh my God, I haven't stepped outside and like took a deep breath and feel, you know, the sun and just had this moment. I sent my husband a text and I was like, I kind of feel like life's passing us by, you know, like it's just from one thing to the next and we're not like stopping.

[00:57:04] 

And that was like a really big moment for me to just be like, I need to figure out some other things that bring me joy. The restaurant brings me immense joy, but it's a different type of joy. So, long answer, I need to find something. 

[00:57:18] Josh Sharkey: 

What are you doing today to, to try and make that happen? 

[00:57:21] Caroline Glover: 

You know, I was, I woke up, I was like, I'm going to go for a run.

[00:57:25] 

And then I convinced myself, I'm not going to go for a run. And now I'm like, I'm going to go for a run because I need to be outside, you know, I need at least 45 minutes to, to just appreciate being alive. Honestly, you know, sometimes you kind of take things for granted. And I think that a lot of us do that in this industry.

[00:57:43] 

So I'm going to do it. I'm going to get out and run. 

[00:57:46] Josh Sharkey: 

I love running for that, by the way, like running for me, isn't even. Exercise. It's just like this therapeutic, I just don't have time to think. I don't have anybody else there. I don't use, I don't listen to podcasts. I don't listen to music. I just run and think, I try not to even go on trails too much.

[00:58:00] 

Cause I'll get too like, like distracted by, is that a mushroom over there? Is that a ramp? You know, and so like just roads, but it is a great, just You know, respite from life, but sounds like you're looking for something else as well. Maybe you can put in like a 10 minute thing in your calendar of just like, okay, I'm going to figure out one new thing to do. 

[00:58:17] Caroline Glover: 

Exercise or running has always been my thing or, and I love that, but now I'm getting to the point where I'm like, I want to do something that like I have to learn or something that excites me.

[00:58:27] 

Or keeps my hands busy because I, at the end of the night, like sometimes I'll just watch shitty TV and scroll through my phone. And then like 30 minutes later, an hour later, I'm like, what the hell did I just do with that free time? Like, that sucks. So yeah, I don't know. I just feel like I'm at a place where I'm like, I just want to learn.

[00:58:44] 

I want to learn how to do something. I’m bored.

[00:58:46] Josh Sharkey: 

If you figure out what it is, I want to know what you figure out. All right, Caroline. Well, is there anything I didn't ask you that we think we should talk about or we want to share? 

[00:58:57] Caroline Glover: 

No, I don't think so. I mean, I think we, like, covered a lot. 

[00:59:00] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah, this was good. A little therapeutic. A little, you know. 

[00:59:03] Caroline Glover: 

Yeah. 

[00:59:04] Josh Sharkey: 

Uh, well, it was a pleasure. Really great meeting you. And excited to see how you continue to grow all the things that you're building. 

[00:59:10] Caroline Glover: 

Yeah. Well, thank you for having me on. I appreciate it. And, you know, I think that it's so important to talk motherhood and how you do this.

[00:59:19] 

And I think like the more people talk about it, the more maybe empowered women will feel to start families and continue to work in the hospitality industry, you know? 

[00:59:29] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, just reflecting on some of the conversation, sometimes there isn't a solution, but to your point, it's just good to talk about because, you know, it can just help people hear that, oh yeah, there's I'm not the only one thinking about this.

[00:59:42] Caroline Glover: 

Totally. I think that's exactly it because I don't think there's a solution, but I do think like if it's something that people feel like they can talk about or understand more, you know, before they get into it, it makes it feel less scary or daunting. 

[00:59:55] Josh Sharkey:

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for tuning into the podcast. The music from this show is by Hip hop artist, Fresh Daily. for show notes and more visit getmeez.com/podcast. That's G E T M E E Z dot com forward slash podcast. If you enjoyed the show, I'd love it. If you can share it with fellow entrepreneurs and culinary pros and give us a five star rating wherever you listen to your podcasts, keep innovating, don't settle, make today a little bit better than yesterday.

[01:00:26] Josh Sharkey: 

And remember, it's impossible for us to learn what we think we See you next time.